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Archive through January 07, 2011
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fcurrier
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- Frank A. Currier(Northern Maine)
I had a chance to buy a "restored" 169 last summer for $700. The engine was being "rebuilt to "perfect performance". I never saw the engine, but when I saw what the guy called a "restored" tractor I didn't have much faith in his engine overhaul. That got me to thinking and I came up with the idea that all a 169 is is a 149 or 129 rated at 2 or 4 more horsepower and a lot different engine than a K321 or K301. Granted, a 169 would be nice to have, especially because of its low (5,000 ish?) production number and if a guy were to have just 1 Cub Cadet (like that's gonna happen?) the 169 would be the one to look for. Otherwise, a 149 ain't no sloutch and I'll bet a well running 149 will outdo a neglected 169 any day of the week.
Oh, by the way, that was part of my "conversation" with Jeanne when about the same time I was able to buy another 149 for $500. Saved $200???
Under Edit: Lyle, it can be done, but it's a PITA. If you need hydraulics I think you'd be better off going with a hydraulic pump run off the back of the engine - that's what the 123 and 125 were designed for. I found a 125 with a spring assist and that's a trip! Talk about a helper spring! I'll bet you could find a 149 for what it would cost to put hydraulics on a narrow frame.
Oh, by the way, that was part of my "conversation" with Jeanne when about the same time I was able to buy another 149 for $500. Saved $200???
Under Edit: Lyle, it can be done, but it's a PITA. If you need hydraulics I think you'd be better off going with a hydraulic pump run off the back of the engine - that's what the 123 and 125 were designed for. I found a 125 with a spring assist and that's a trip! Talk about a helper spring! I'll bet you could find a 149 for what it would cost to put hydraulics on a narrow frame.
Lyle B.
No you can't. But you can switch out the hydro pump from a ported machine to yours.
No you can't. But you can switch out the hydro pump from a ported machine to yours.
Harry,
If I ever do decide to sell, I'll let you know.
Just for a matter of record. In about 1995 or 96,
I was running a small engine shop for a local farm store. One of our parts suppliers was MEDART
INC. out of ST.LOUIS,MO. They came up with a few new 12hp KOHLERS for Cub Cadets.It was black,and I believe cost was $550.??I bought one for a 122 I had at the time.It was complete except for S/G.
ROD
If I ever do decide to sell, I'll let you know.
Just for a matter of record. In about 1995 or 96,
I was running a small engine shop for a local farm store. One of our parts suppliers was MEDART
INC. out of ST.LOUIS,MO. They came up with a few new 12hp KOHLERS for Cub Cadets.It was black,and I believe cost was $550.??I bought one for a 122 I had at the time.It was complete except for S/G.
ROD
Charlie,
Do you mean it's not possible, or just that Lyle can't do it? I ask because I'm pretty sure that I've seen how-to instructions online before. I realize that not all information on the web is accurate. I also saw a narrow frame with hydraulic lift a few years ago that, as I understood from the owner, had the original modified hydro supplying the hydraulic power. If I had a later model ported pump to compare to my narrow frame units, it might be obvious to me why it can't be done.
Jerry
Do you mean it's not possible, or just that Lyle can't do it? I ask because I'm pretty sure that I've seen how-to instructions online before. I realize that not all information on the web is accurate. I also saw a narrow frame with hydraulic lift a few years ago that, as I understood from the owner, had the original modified hydro supplying the hydraulic power. If I had a later model ported pump to compare to my narrow frame units, it might be obvious to me why it can't be done.
Jerry
mgonitzke
Well-known member
I'd say it would be very difficult for someone to port an unported hydro. There are a lot of extra passageways that would have to be drilled, machined for relief valve seats, etc. which is just not worth the trouble and risk, given the fairly low cost of a good, used ported unit. The machining required is probably far beyond what 95%+ of us have the machinery, time, and capability to accomplish. I remember seeing that tractor Jerry is talking about. It looked like there was a lot more cutting done that I would have wanted to do to the tractor. There is very little room under those NF tractors to route hydraulic lines and stuff.
Jerry M.
If you or anyone has the machine shop to do it, go for it!
BUT, I do know that Dan Hoefler looked into it years ago and we all know that Dan can do anything he sets his mind to. But he said that the hours it would take him to do it would not be cost effective to attempt it.
Personally, and this is not aimed at anyone in particular. But IMHO, it would be where a fool and his money/time parted considering you can switch out a pump in 30 minutes and not spend days or even weeks trying to do something totally worthless in the first place!
That's my nickles worth, like it or not.
If you or anyone has the machine shop to do it, go for it!
BUT, I do know that Dan Hoefler looked into it years ago and we all know that Dan can do anything he sets his mind to. But he said that the hours it would take him to do it would not be cost effective to attempt it.
Personally, and this is not aimed at anyone in particular. But IMHO, it would be where a fool and his money/time parted considering you can switch out a pump in 30 minutes and not spend days or even weeks trying to do something totally worthless in the first place!
That's my nickles worth, like it or not.
hydroharry
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
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- 4,468
- displayname
- Harry Bursell
Keep the details coming Guys. It's still very interesting.
Allen S - well certainly Ocean-gophers discuss fins.
Calvin - looks like you probably have a replacement short or mini block. You said they stuck the stickers on the rear cowl. Do you mean the flywheel shroud? I assume that is painted yellow since you mentioned all the sheet metal is yellow. A pic would be nice if you could get one. Based on the Serial no. 2312709031 you provided and the Kohler Service manual info, it would appear your engine was built in 1993. What I'm also wondering is if there are any holes in the shroud or cowl just above the area where the coil is mounted on the side. These would be 4 small holes about 1/16" diameter, and would be from the rivets where the original metal Kohler ID tag would have been mounted.
Shane S - thanks for that info. That serial number is for the tractor. Can you get us the Serial No. for the K341A engine?
Frank - up there so close to the great divide - well, I suppose you're about right. After having owned about 30 CCs, and having as many as 9 at one time, when it came time to decide on keeping just one - it was the 169. My very first was a 1450 and that was the hardest to part with. I also had a really nice 1200 and also a couple 128's and 129's that were great machines. I also had a sweet 107. Of course most of them get that way after you go thru and restore them from poor to near perfect condition. The thing about the 169 is I love that S/G starting - it's so quick, nearly before you turn the key. That was really something I disliked about the QL units - that noisy integrated starter, and that it was slower. Of course there are alot other things about the 169, as you mentioned the low production volume, the oddity of a short production run, no standard hydraulic lift from the factory. Seems it clearly was a quick production addition probably for competitive purposes but made a really nice tractor. And hey, even the 13 fin block rarity adds to the mistique. Why I suspect ever Guy on here probably would like to have one (hehehe).
Ok, a few more details to help with the 12 vs. 13 fin phenomena. I should have asked you to post serial numbers of your 12 and 13 fin Kohlers, and the 169 tractors. That could help identify original vs replacement engines. Here are my details.
Model 169, Serial no. 523760 (produced Sept 1974)
Kohler K341A, 13 cooling fins, Serial no. 6272028 (produced 1974)
My sons Model 169, Serial no. 528330 (produced Oct. 1974)
Kohler K341A, 12 cooling fins, Serial no. 6337740 (produced 1974)
The Kohler manual only breaks down the serial number to the year of production as follows:
For 7 digit serial numbers, if the 1st 2 digits are 60-69 it was produced in 1974, 1st 2 digits 70-72 it was produced in 1975, 1st 2 digits are 73-79 it was produced in 1976, 80-89 was produced 1977, 90-94 was producted 1978, 95-99 was produced 1979. It goes on with 8 digit serial numbers and 10 digit serial numbers - as was the case for Calvin's serial number, 10 digits, 1st 2 digits being 23 was produced in 1993.
I suspect we'll find some replacement engines out there thought to have been original. Also, there used to be some charts showing what model CCs were produced during which months of the year (start and end of production). I don't recall when production of the 169 ended but think it was 1974 so it would seem all the Kohler serial numbers should be 7 digits and the first 2 digits should be in the range of 60-69.
Rod S - every once in a while I still hear about a brand spanking new K series popping up still today. Just can't be many left.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die - but occassionally they take a long rest for relaxation.
Allen S - well certainly Ocean-gophers discuss fins.
Calvin - looks like you probably have a replacement short or mini block. You said they stuck the stickers on the rear cowl. Do you mean the flywheel shroud? I assume that is painted yellow since you mentioned all the sheet metal is yellow. A pic would be nice if you could get one. Based on the Serial no. 2312709031 you provided and the Kohler Service manual info, it would appear your engine was built in 1993. What I'm also wondering is if there are any holes in the shroud or cowl just above the area where the coil is mounted on the side. These would be 4 small holes about 1/16" diameter, and would be from the rivets where the original metal Kohler ID tag would have been mounted.
Shane S - thanks for that info. That serial number is for the tractor. Can you get us the Serial No. for the K341A engine?
Frank - up there so close to the great divide - well, I suppose you're about right. After having owned about 30 CCs, and having as many as 9 at one time, when it came time to decide on keeping just one - it was the 169. My very first was a 1450 and that was the hardest to part with. I also had a really nice 1200 and also a couple 128's and 129's that were great machines. I also had a sweet 107. Of course most of them get that way after you go thru and restore them from poor to near perfect condition. The thing about the 169 is I love that S/G starting - it's so quick, nearly before you turn the key. That was really something I disliked about the QL units - that noisy integrated starter, and that it was slower. Of course there are alot other things about the 169, as you mentioned the low production volume, the oddity of a short production run, no standard hydraulic lift from the factory. Seems it clearly was a quick production addition probably for competitive purposes but made a really nice tractor. And hey, even the 13 fin block rarity adds to the mistique. Why I suspect ever Guy on here probably would like to have one (hehehe).
Ok, a few more details to help with the 12 vs. 13 fin phenomena. I should have asked you to post serial numbers of your 12 and 13 fin Kohlers, and the 169 tractors. That could help identify original vs replacement engines. Here are my details.
Model 169, Serial no. 523760 (produced Sept 1974)
Kohler K341A, 13 cooling fins, Serial no. 6272028 (produced 1974)
My sons Model 169, Serial no. 528330 (produced Oct. 1974)
Kohler K341A, 12 cooling fins, Serial no. 6337740 (produced 1974)
The Kohler manual only breaks down the serial number to the year of production as follows:
For 7 digit serial numbers, if the 1st 2 digits are 60-69 it was produced in 1974, 1st 2 digits 70-72 it was produced in 1975, 1st 2 digits are 73-79 it was produced in 1976, 80-89 was produced 1977, 90-94 was producted 1978, 95-99 was produced 1979. It goes on with 8 digit serial numbers and 10 digit serial numbers - as was the case for Calvin's serial number, 10 digits, 1st 2 digits being 23 was produced in 1993.
I suspect we'll find some replacement engines out there thought to have been original. Also, there used to be some charts showing what model CCs were produced during which months of the year (start and end of production). I don't recall when production of the 169 ended but think it was 1974 so it would seem all the Kohler serial numbers should be 7 digits and the first 2 digits should be in the range of 60-69.
Rod S - every once in a while I still hear about a brand spanking new K series popping up still today. Just can't be many left.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die - but occassionally they take a long rest for relaxation.
mhomrighausen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Messages
- 3,133
- displayname
- Marlin Homrighausen
Good Morning All.
Now a little and a LOT about trying to make a NON ported into a ported hydro. Every now and then I get an e:mail asking the proverbial, "What is wrong when I tried to make a non ported hydro into a ported hydro? All the holes are correct and such however I don't have any pressure. Could there be an internal leak somewhere?" The answer in a nutshell is .... more than likely .... YES!!!
Remember what Dennis F. has repeated said about IH's problems with internal leaks? All manufacturers experience the same problems with internal leaks with castings? Guess what .... absolutely NO manufacturer is immune to having castings with pin hole or "invisible to the human eye" because they are internal holes that show up only when a hole is drilled or machined in the casting/housing. It is a fact of life. These pin holes that are internal are caught at the factory while testing. The factory then removes these bad castings from production. If someone goes to "making my own ported from a non ported hydro" and begins drilling the necessary holes they run the possibility of discovering one of those pin holes that would never affect performance or be found if the non ported hydro housing had been left undisturbed to begin with.
<font size="-2">(Maybe this info should be put in the FAQs sometime.... it keep popping up every now and then.)
</font>
Everyone have a wonderful day. I am off to work.
Now a little and a LOT about trying to make a NON ported into a ported hydro. Every now and then I get an e:mail asking the proverbial, "What is wrong when I tried to make a non ported hydro into a ported hydro? All the holes are correct and such however I don't have any pressure. Could there be an internal leak somewhere?" The answer in a nutshell is .... more than likely .... YES!!!
Remember what Dennis F. has repeated said about IH's problems with internal leaks? All manufacturers experience the same problems with internal leaks with castings? Guess what .... absolutely NO manufacturer is immune to having castings with pin hole or "invisible to the human eye" because they are internal holes that show up only when a hole is drilled or machined in the casting/housing. It is a fact of life. These pin holes that are internal are caught at the factory while testing. The factory then removes these bad castings from production. If someone goes to "making my own ported from a non ported hydro" and begins drilling the necessary holes they run the possibility of discovering one of those pin holes that would never affect performance or be found if the non ported hydro housing had been left undisturbed to begin with.
<font size="-2">(Maybe this info should be put in the FAQs sometime.... it keep popping up every now and then.)
</font>
Everyone have a wonderful day. I am off to work.
Charlie, Matt, Marlin--That's what I was looking for. "Can't be done" and "isn't cost effective" are two entirely different answers. I've considered trying it. I have the hydraulics knowledge and access to the machine tools, but it's on that long list of projects I don't have time for.
Matt, the tractor I was referring to was local. I didn't get to see inside, but it looked good from the outside.
Thanks,
Jerry
Matt, the tractor I was referring to was local. I didn't get to see inside, but it looked good from the outside.
Thanks,
Jerry
HARRY - Yes, My deal with the Kohler salesman was totally a Gov't Job, I was just an IH employee, and he was a Kohler employee. I remember I had to call someone in Material Control/Purchasing at LVL to get his name & contact info, and that person @ LVL was deep into gettin all the CC inventory organized and loaded out to MTD/CCC's plant location. Think She said something like 2-3 SEMI loads/day. But the Kohler salesman was very helpful, seems like it was 2-3 months before MY engine was built. I remember My Wife & I had a real nice trip from the Quad-Cities to Sheboygan to pick the engine up. Wife was about 7 mo's pregnant at the time so we made several "pit stops".
Don't know why my engine was yellow. Salesman did make an interesting comment as we loaded the new engine in my car. He said "Don't order or buy parts for this engine UNTIL you take it apart if you run it that long, It may not really be a 10 hp K241, which I interpreted to mean it might have been a short stroke 12 or 14 HP block. Interesting!
That engine was still running great in Dad's 104 when he sold it at his last auction in 2006. He's had a late 50's vintage Lo-Boy and his 154 for main mowing tractors for a few years but that 104 was his #1 mower from about '85 till the late 1990's.
MARLIN - Yes, ANY time you machine into a cast part, cast iron, cast steel, cast stainless steel, sand casting, investment casting, even die casting, It's AMAZING what you will find. I've even seen inclusions in centrifugal castings which is pretty rare. I remember a 316 SS investment casting pump housing we machined at one place I worked, we had to drill big 3/4" dia holes to mount the pump cover thru heavy material thicknesses and about half way done with the second hole the water soluble coolant started pouring out the first hole 8-10 inches away. An internal SHRINK in the heavy cross section allowed the coolant to flow from one hole to the next. I've seen little balls of clay from the molding sand in steel castings an inch in diameter just under the surface of a casting that had become almost a GLASS marble from the heat of the mlten steel. I've seen parts of cores break apart and float to the surface on 20,000# steel & iron castings just a quarter of an inch under the surface of the casting, as the broken core was chisled out it was the size of a BRICK! ANY time you get molten metal in close proximity to sand your BEGGING for problems from time to time!
And I won't get into the problems of heat-treating, annealing, normalizing, or stress relieving iron & steel castings & forgings and the problems I've suffered thru.
JERRY - My above comments aside, from what I've seen of the relief valve bores here I imagine some of the cutters used are pretty complex to get ALL the bores concentric and to proper depth. And I won't mention how much fun it is to cut threads to the BOTTOM of a flat bottom hole! It's "Do-able" but I know I wouldn't attempt it in my shop!
I've considered building an on-board aux. hyd unit for one of my Cubbies, it'd probably be a frt mounted PTO driven pump, valve, reservoir unit, maybe even two-spool valve to run my dump cart AND run a hyd. H-frame press SON & I would like to build.
Don't know why my engine was yellow. Salesman did make an interesting comment as we loaded the new engine in my car. He said "Don't order or buy parts for this engine UNTIL you take it apart if you run it that long, It may not really be a 10 hp K241, which I interpreted to mean it might have been a short stroke 12 or 14 HP block. Interesting!
That engine was still running great in Dad's 104 when he sold it at his last auction in 2006. He's had a late 50's vintage Lo-Boy and his 154 for main mowing tractors for a few years but that 104 was his #1 mower from about '85 till the late 1990's.
MARLIN - Yes, ANY time you machine into a cast part, cast iron, cast steel, cast stainless steel, sand casting, investment casting, even die casting, It's AMAZING what you will find. I've even seen inclusions in centrifugal castings which is pretty rare. I remember a 316 SS investment casting pump housing we machined at one place I worked, we had to drill big 3/4" dia holes to mount the pump cover thru heavy material thicknesses and about half way done with the second hole the water soluble coolant started pouring out the first hole 8-10 inches away. An internal SHRINK in the heavy cross section allowed the coolant to flow from one hole to the next. I've seen little balls of clay from the molding sand in steel castings an inch in diameter just under the surface of a casting that had become almost a GLASS marble from the heat of the mlten steel. I've seen parts of cores break apart and float to the surface on 20,000# steel & iron castings just a quarter of an inch under the surface of the casting, as the broken core was chisled out it was the size of a BRICK! ANY time you get molten metal in close proximity to sand your BEGGING for problems from time to time!
And I won't get into the problems of heat-treating, annealing, normalizing, or stress relieving iron & steel castings & forgings and the problems I've suffered thru.
JERRY - My above comments aside, from what I've seen of the relief valve bores here I imagine some of the cutters used are pretty complex to get ALL the bores concentric and to proper depth. And I won't mention how much fun it is to cut threads to the BOTTOM of a flat bottom hole! It's "Do-able" but I know I wouldn't attempt it in my shop!
I've considered building an on-board aux. hyd unit for one of my Cubbies, it'd probably be a frt mounted PTO driven pump, valve, reservoir unit, maybe even two-spool valve to run my dump cart AND run a hyd. H-frame press SON & I would like to build.
mgwin
Well-known member
Question:
Did IH/Cub Cadet ever make rear rims with the valve stem hole on the inside?
Did IH/Cub Cadet ever make rear rims with the valve stem hole on the inside?
MARTY - NO, and unlike several other L&G tractor co's, IH never offered reversable rear wheels for CC's.
The wheels for CC's were made by Electric Wheel Company of Quincy, IL for all of the early CC production, and later I'm sure French & Hecht from Davenport & Walcott, IA made wheels also. EWC was a division of Firestone, F&H was part of Fruehauf which was a part of Kelsey-Hayes.
The wheels for CC's were made by Electric Wheel Company of Quincy, IL for all of the early CC production, and later I'm sure French & Hecht from Davenport & Walcott, IA made wheels also. EWC was a division of Firestone, F&H was part of Fruehauf which was a part of Kelsey-Hayes.
Hydro Harry; My 169 ser.no. is 506737 . The 13 fin engine in it i was told was the original factory engine. It does have the quarter size place in the jug. Not drilled. The rod broke and destroyed the block. The front is stamped K 341. Above that is stamped E/4. I replaced that engine with a K341A, 12 fin. It has a sticker on the shroud ser. no. 6324583. Spec no. is 71154A. From all apearances it was yellow from the factory. I can't see the front behind the pulley.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
So thanks guys for all the input on porting hydros, I`m glad I asked, the casting flaws would worry me more than anything else. I see ported hydros for sale in various places, which ones will fit my old narrow frames ? 149 etc. ?
I asked yesterday and was overlooked about the dipstick location in a K-341aqs. If it goes in from the top I've heard it doesn't have grenade gears because the dipstick goes where the gears would be. Does this apply to this model engine as well? I know this pretty much applies to the K-301....at least the older engines.
Hydro Harry-
Do you need the serial number to the engine as well as a fin count?
Hydro Harry-
Do you need the serial number to the engine as well as a fin count?
WAYNE - There's actually THREE dipstick locations on the big K-series engines. The top location, the front right top corner of the crankcase as the engine is installed in a CC.
The timing gear cover under the carb, right behind the ign. points.
And the Q/L's use a location on the front RIGHT lower side corner of the block.
The timing cover location and the QL side mount both avoid the gernade gears, the side mount entering under the gears. As was discussed several months ago in the 301 discussion, the top frt corner was referred to as a "oil fill tube", not a dipstick tube and one of the other two locations was the dipstick, mostly the timing cover location.
If a dipstick installs fully in your top tube there's probably no gernade gears. Just before it snaps into place, wiggle the stick around and if it doesn't hit anthing inside the crankcase there shouldn't be any gears.
The timing gear cover under the carb, right behind the ign. points.
And the Q/L's use a location on the front RIGHT lower side corner of the block.
The timing cover location and the QL side mount both avoid the gernade gears, the side mount entering under the gears. As was discussed several months ago in the 301 discussion, the top frt corner was referred to as a "oil fill tube", not a dipstick tube and one of the other two locations was the dipstick, mostly the timing cover location.
If a dipstick installs fully in your top tube there's probably no gernade gears. Just before it snaps into place, wiggle the stick around and if it doesn't hit anthing inside the crankcase there shouldn't be any gears.
