Archive through January 06, 2011

[dfrisk]

PAUL - Yes, ASAE standards were at first 1-1/8" 6-spline back in the 1930's, then changed to 1-3/8" 6-spline around 1940 when higher HP tractors were being built, both 540 RPM. Then in the '60's ASAE added the 21-spline 1-3/8" 1000 RPM PTO, and finally, in about 1980 the 1-3/4" 21-spline 1000 RPM spline was added. I could be off on those dates/years, but doing a search on ASABE should get people plenty of reading material. ASAE was American Society of Agricultural Engineers, but they're now known as ASABE, American Society of Ag & Biological Engineers.

So yes, the Cub was non-ASAE standard, and I think all the early non-numbered Cubs & Lo-Boys ran at engine speed correct? In order to get a 540 RPM PTO you had to get one of those HUB CITY reduction boxes that are being HOARDED! I seem to remember most Cubs having a rather small, 6-7 inch dia drive pulley on the PTO to run belly mowers.

Yes, on the adapters, about a month ago when I was at my local C/IH dealer, as I walked out I saw their bin with PTO adapters, they still had the 1-1/8" to 1-3/8" sleeve adapter like most old tractors like Dad's old '39 H needed to run anything, plus 21-spline to 6-spline to run 540 RPM equip at half throttle on 1000 RPM PTO's.

There's a company called GROB Splined Shafts here in WI that makes splined bar stock that matches to internal spline of the SGT's 2000 RPM PTO.

Not to get too far off topic, but IHC really had their act together on their PTO design, BOTH 540 & 1000 RPM shafts were permanently mounted per ASAE spec's and no messing around with hardware, other stub shafts, snap rings, etc required to go from one speed to the other. On a tractor like a 4010, you had to swap stub shafts AND the swinging drawbar to make the change from 540 to 1000 or 1000 to 540.

 

[mpatterson]

I agree, that is too funny....But I'd really like to see what the poor tin work around the top and front of the tiller looks like?

 

[pbell]

Denny,
Yes the PTO's on the Cubs and Lo-Boys ran at engine speed, and the Cub Cadet PTO runs at 514.285 RPM at 3600 engine RPM, because of the 7 to 1 gear reduction, or also run it thru the low side of a creeper and get it down to about 327 RPM.

 

[pandrews]

Does anyone have pics of a snow blade on an Original? I am putting a newer 42 spring trip blade on the O and need to see how the lift rod runs? Did the original lift rod run inside the frame? I think with the newer blade it would be best to stay outside the frame with the lift rod? any input would be helpful!
Thank you

 

[rodsmith]

Charlie,
Tried not stray to far!
Heres my shop door mat!
ROD

 

[stanner]

Paul, the lift rod goes inside the frame... search bach a week or so, this was discussed recently...

 

[jmuncie]

Paul, I don't know anything other than what I've read about creeper ratios, but I'm certain that I've seen in some piece of IH literature that the creeper ratio is 4:1 low range. That doesn't agree with what you're saying about the creeper only reducing the 514 rpm PTO to 327 rpm. Which is correct? Jerry

 

[pbell]

Jerry M,
With the 7 to 1 gear reduction on the front of the transmission plus the 4 to 1 reduction of the creeper, you end up with a total gear reduction of 11 to 1, which reduces the 3600 engine RPM to 327.27272 RPM (3600 divided by 11)at the transmission topshaft/PTO shaft. You are reducing the engine RPM by 11 to 1 to find the PTO RPM, not reducing the 7 to 1 PTO RPM by 4 to 1, to get the total for the PTO RPM. Is that as clear as mud?

 

[hydroharry]

On the 169 and 13 fin vs: 12 fin:

Charlie - I was with ya, and had the same assumption, that all 169's had 13 fin blocks and a 12 fin was a replacement. That's now looking like it's not the case.

Steve - hey thanks for your input. You're really making it a hornets nest but read on. I'm thinking it's really possible you had an original 13 fin AQS.

Art - I tend to agree that you could very well have an original 12 fin. My son claims his 12 fin has that original paint and appearance just like the remainder of the tractor.

Calvin - still waiting on your count.

All - when I rebuilding my 13 fin Kenny Weimann pointed out the casting had a flat spot surface on the front of the block (about the size of a quarter) where the AQS version has a hole drilled to mount that backing plate for the muffler box. It appeared Kohler was getting ready for the AQS version of the engine. Jim Chabot didn't recall seeing that on his. I believe you can't see it with the S/G pulley mounted, but it would be interesting if you guys could look at your 169s behind the pulley and see if you have that flat spot. I wonder if some of the 13 fins did not have it. I do think the AQS engine was used in some other brands (initials WH) before IH was using them. If you guys with 1650s could count your fins as well it would certainly be intersting if someone else has a 13fin AQS besides Steve. This whole thing seems to come down to Kohler details so I'll try to contact Dave Kirk and see if he has any details or might find out something from one of his old Kohler contacts.

And finally - Jeff Baker - are you certain you counted the cooling fins on the block? I believe all the 10, 12 and 14hp blocks had 12 fins.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die - they just find another resting place.

 

[dfrisk]

PAUL B. - You multiply/divide gear ratios when they run in series, not add, so CC PTO w/creeper would be 128.57125 @ 3600 RPM.

Sorry but my photo-tach only has resolution to three decimal places up to 10 RPM I think it is, then drops to one dec. place till 100 RPM so we'll just have to trust the math on the last .07125 RPM.

I've always been a gearing junkie, figuring out speed & pull power increases with changes in gearing, tire size, etc. SON & I used to play with gearing a L-O-T when we raced R/C. One ratio was always best, but we'd have gears for at least 5 other ratios. I saw a torque curve for my 7.3 PSD when I was thinking about ordering it back in late '95, I plotted out the gear speeds for each gear in the 5-spd and figured HP & torque drop for each gear change. It's amazing what too much free time with a calculator can do.

 

[dtanner]

all this talk of a 13 fin Kohler .I know that IH was not the only tractor to get a 13 fin 16hp . I had a bolens 1660 and it had a 13 fin k. I sold it in 08 and it also had a nice foot control hydro.

I soaked the steering wheel with acetone and atf on my 125 last night and will give another try at removing the steering wheel today. I want to remove it so I can rebuild it and the rear end will come out next.I think using the multi angle swing press on that bolt to jar the steering wheel lose is a form of abuse. all the banging must beat the bearings and case damage. We were to have a bunch of snow this morning and well that fell short of the amount that was promised.I`ll get out the broom and clear that away. I should have an IH sweeper here for drive clean up.Have a great day all

 

[sblunier]

Paul, Denny,

I agree, multiply, not add for total gear ratio.

Harry,

13 fin AQS block

 

[rodsmith]

DON T.
Nice 'O'
Nice 100
Looks like you have a nice place up there!
A bad apple spoils the basket,you know!
Glad to here you threw that one out!LOL
ROD

 

[aaytay]

Harry-
Is this the "quarter sized" spot you're talking about?

 

[mlamar]

Donald
I like the Cubs in that picture. With that trailer and tractors I'd call your place paradise. Looks like a bunch of weight on that disc to the lift...lets see, a pumpkin, a bucket, a light post and a large rock. Should be able to really kick up some ground with it.

 

[dkirk]

Harry,

Regarding the controversy on 12 versus 13 fin blocks, I really can't contribute much here. But I do have a K301 AQS 13 fin engine manufactured in 1975 that I removed from my 1250 when doing the hot-rod Kohler swap. Obviously Kohler must have had older and newer tooling that they used concurrently to produce block castings. This procedure is commonly done in industry.

 

[dtanner]

Mike LaMar

There have been a few changes around here since that picture was taken. The light pole is fiberglass pipe a mistake at work. They were told to make 34 mil pipe 21'.6" and made it 34 mils thick instead. I got it for $25.00 for a light pole. It will last a long time.The drive way is now paved and my Cub storage building is ready for siding in the spring .. If you look close you can see my 149 and me lol enjoying some single malt. I need to update my profile picture and have all my Cubs on it and all the attachments I have here. I think that will take a day with some help.I do like my property. Later Don T

 

[pbell]

Denny, Steve,
What ever, I'm not a math wizz or and engineer and it't not the first time I've been wrong and I'm sure it won't be the last. The point I was trying to make was that a rear PTO in a Cub Cadet turns backwards, just as it does in a Cub, and is slower than the standard 540 RPM even at full throttle, and if you run it thru the low side of a creeper it is even slower. PTO's have a limited use on a CC to start with, and if you had a use for a RPM that slow, I don't think the creeper would stand up to much of a PTO load. As we know, a creeper's purpose was to provide slower tractor speeds at higher engine RPM such as when using a snowthrower or tiller, and not to provide additional power/torque. It's not a TA.

 

[dtanner]

Are big snow storm,This is the most we got so far this winter.

I might have to put the 54" blade on the 149 to clean this up .

 

[dfrisk]

PAUL - Awww You HAD to mention a T/A in a GD CC... Wyatt & I had MANY many converstions about how to fit a T/A in a GD Cubbie over many bottles & cans of malted refreshments!

I always thought a rear PTO would have been nice on a CC to run things like bale elevators, small grain elevators, augers, etc. Dad had a 40-sumthing ft bale elevator for running bales up into the barns than an H powered easily at just above an idle, even a CC 70 running at half throttle would have done the job, plus allowed me to get the rack lined up better with the chute into the elevator, the M & loader normally ran the elevator and had a footprint about 6 TIMES the size of a CC and any place we put hay or straw into required a sharp 90 degree turn with the M right where I needed to drive!

From anything I've seen over all these years, NOBODY except Hub City made Anything to fit on the CC PTO, and all HC made was the gearboxes to change direction & RPM and output spline to make the PTO ASAE compliant.