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Archive through January 06, 2011

IH Cub Cadet Forum

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13 vs. 12 fin Kohler blocks

Steve - thanks for posting the pic of your 13 fin AQS. Did you say the tractor or the engine was a 1975 manufacture date?

Art - yes that is the qtr size flat spot on the casting that I was referring to. My 13 fin has that spot but not drilled. I was wondering if other 13 fins do NOT have it?

Dave Kirk - thanks for all your info. Very interesting that you have a 13 fin K301. Obviously nothing but the best for you. Do you know if it has a thicker casting so it could be bored bigger than a 12 fin?

Calvin - did you make it home last nite? Still waiting on your fin count!!!! Gotta know if you have 12 or 13.

How about you guys with 1650s? If you can, please count your fins and post on here.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die - especially when you count your fins.
 
Hmmm, I count 13 fins on my Killer Kohler K301, and it has that quarter size spot.
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Paul Bell,
I'm as dumb as a box of rocks,when it comes to the subject you guys are discussing over.But i'd love to have a book of all your postings over the years,from these forums! The information you and a handful of others shares,teaches the rest of us in the I.H. and CUB CADET community is priceless!!!!!!!
ROD
 
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If I can ever help anyone out with a bearing issue,I'll try.
Ball and roller bearings,PARTS CATALOG!
I.H.BEARING PART #'S and CORRESPONDING MANUFACTURERS'NUMBERS!
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Hi Harry,

I went home and counted last night and it appears that mine is a 12 - but I was in a rush and want to recount tonight. (I'll also try to get pics) After looking at the pics posted here, I may not have have counted the flange that the head sits against as a fin, but it appears I should have based on others counts.

Also, my engine cowling has stickers on it (between rear cowling and the gas tank) - so I should be able to provide additional info related to serial #, etc. The stickers were just to dirty last night to make out beyond the "16hp" one.

Are there other places on the block that have the serial/model# on them? (or other tell-tale signs of a 16hp engine...) It occurred to me that since the stickers appear on the (fairly easily removable) cowling - could some could have gotten switched around (by accident or on purpose) in the ensuing years since built? I'm wondering how a person might know for sure they have a 16hp engine vs. 14 (or other). I would not be surprised if due to rarity of the model, some weirdness might not have taken place from time to time. I'd like to verify mine is a true 16 - since I bought used from someone who bought it used, from someone who bought it used... My tractors serial # is correct for a 169, as well as the model # stickers - but for piece of mind I'm like to verify further on the motor - since it, along with the tractor serial # plate are all that really make it different than a 149, etc. I don't have any real worries, but it would be worth it to double check prior to sinking any more money into it. I've already spent a good sum of cash for a NOS tin and NOS fiberglass dash, along with a few other NOS parts - as I'd really like to do the restore as nice as possible...

Regarding using the paint to verify originality of motor - my 169 frame had been rattle-can repainted at some point - so matching "patinas" isn't going to be good means for me of verifying the originality of the motor - although the paint on the engine appears to be OEM as all painted engine parts match the cowling, which would certainly show obvious signs of repainting. This leads me to believe the motor was at least never rebuilt - since I would guess a rebuild with jug replacement ( which likely would have occurred at a cub dealer or small engine shop, correct?) probably wouldn't have included repainting all the engine parts and cowling to match...

All of this (12 vs. 13 fin) doesn't make a lot of sense to me related to indication of original or replaced/rebuilt motors. How many motors could have required replacing/rebuilding? Especially replacing? Even way back in the day that would have an expensive repair (replacing entire engine)that I don't think many owners would have gone for if they tore up the engine - and how often did that happen? We owned a 1200 when I was growing up and while there were a number of repairs required (ISO mounts, drive shaft coupling, PTO oil seal, gas tank replacement) the engine ran fine (and wasn't ever treated with much TLC) for 20+ years. Even after sitting outdoors for years after my dad passed, it fired up with little effort - which seems common for Cubs. So how could there have been that many failures for such a small sampling of the WF series? My only guess would be if there was a really, really serious design flaw with the first 16hp motors, leading to widespread catastrophic failures, leading to a large # of warranty based complete engine transplants. However, wouldn't such a thing be well remembered and/or documented?

Finally, I have a 1650, 1450 and 1250 - I will count their fins as well.

Hope all this helps. These types of mysteries (and people coming together to solve them) is what makes this all so fun and worthwhile.

-Calvin
 
CALVIN - I'll try to answer some of your questions.

A K341, 16 HP will have ten head bolts or studs. A K301, 321, & 241 will have only nine. A K241 should have a flat bottom oil pan, and a K301 should have a sump or deep oil pan. A K321 should have the large flywheel and blower housing requiring either a WF chassis or the flared out section in the frame to clear the wider blower housing. But I know there's several NF CC's around with small flywheel K321's in them, like the one out in my shop.

Replacement engines were much more common that you might think. Back in the 1960's & 1970's when Dad was still farming most IH dealers had a complete K241 sitting on their parts counters as a display item, with a $300-350 price tag on them. The K301 & 321's not so common, they wouldn't set level with the deep sump oil pan. In 1981 I bought a complete K241 direct from IH's Kohler sales representative for $300 picked up at his house in rural Sheboygan, WI, at the time it was over $500 at an IH dealer.

The '65 vintage CC 70 out in my shop now was professionally rebuilt in 1968, Dad & I rebuilt it again in 1971, and the K161 was replaced with a complete K181 in about 1974 or '75. So within ten yrs the engine was replaced.

A complete replacement engine had all the shrouds included, along with a new serial number, and corresponding spec number. Kohler & IH also offered "short blocks" which was a new block, crankshaft, rod & piston/rings, etc but no head and no oil pan I think, it's explained in the Kohler K-series service manual. Also a "mini-block" was available with the head & oil pan. And with both those types of service replacement engines the old shrouds from the tractor/engine were reused which meant the serial number and spec number were probably not correct.

The bigger engines did last longer than the tiny K161's & 181's. They really struggled to run the 38" decks. But the K241 & 301's lasted much longer. But I'd really be surprised if there's many 10, 12, 14, or 16 HP engines that haven't been rebuilt or replaced by now.

The K-series Kohlers are what's known as a "parent Bore engine", with no replaceable cylinder sleeve or "JUG" as in a piston air cooled airplane engine. You bore & hone the bore out.010", .020", then .030" and install corresponding oversize pistons & rings. The O/S pistons are moarked 010, 020, 030 to their top surfaces.

Most farmers were pretty capable of significant repairs, removing & replacing a complete engine was maybe a two hour job with just hand tools, rebuilding the engine required a lot of specialized machine tools to bore/hone, resurface valves & seats and by the time you bought all the parts & labor the cost of a rebuild really wasn't that much cheaper than a new engine of one form or another.

Since here in a few months the 50th anniversary of the production of the First CC will be celebrated, and many of these little tractors have passed thru MANY many hands, it's impossible to tell what all has been done to them since they were built. I'm just happy when mine start and run well in their current configuration. I remember a discussion here many years ago where someone bought a brand new, never sold 982 with all the options from a dealer down south, Texas, Arkansas, Nebraska, etc.... The tractor had sat on the dealer's showroom floor since the day it was taken out of the shipping crate back in 1980,'81. And yes, it was never disclosed what that tractor sold for but I suspect it was much more than the 1980 Mfg's suggested retail price.
 
Calvin-

Unless someone has a crystal ball, I don't think anyone's going to be able to tell you how many 169s had their engines replaced. I think most replacement engines would have been black. Earlier ones may have been yellow. Kohler's replacement blocks were probably somewhat universal in the way that they may have had extra features, i.e. electric PTO clutch mounting holes, on engines that went into mechanical clutch tractors. They just use the block that meets the requirements of the original specification. If the engine was shortblocked with an engine factory-painted yellow, there's probably no way to know if it is/was new from the factory that way. Perhaps Dennis F. or Jim D. knows when the yellow replacement engines stopped. I suppose if the engine was bought directly from Kohler it would have come black, no matter what. BTW, the K341 has 10 head bolts...K241-K321 has 9. I believe the exhaust port is also larger on the K341.

I had a fairly early 1650 with a 12-fin K341.

If the engine was replaced with a correct replacement or short block, is there any reason to lose sleep over that? I hope this doesn't go the way of antique muscle cars with all the numbers-matching, everything-has-to-match-or-it's-worth-half-as-much stuff...if it does, I'm outta here...
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Edit: Denny types faster than I do
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Hi Dennis,

Thanks for all the info! It does make sense when thinking about it that it would be much easier for an end-user to replace vs. rebuild an engine and might do it at home - therefore purchasing a complete engine from a dealer.

I still wonder how often that might have been required. Outside of severe neglect or misuse, it would seem unlikely (based on the longevity of Kohler K series engines in general) that too many failed early on in a tractors life. Taking that into consideration, along with the rarity of the 169 and the fact that most individuals who'd have been capable of replacing a complete engine (despite its relative ease), probably wouldn't have rung it out (neglect, misuse or abuse) in the first place - due to their better than average knowledge of maintaining an engine and equipment to begin with.

Following that line of thinking, I wonder how many complete 169 engines were ever set aside (either with IH or at dealers) waiting to be purchased for replacement? I wouldn't expect that they'd stocked too many of them, just due to the extremely small foot print of the 169 model (I believe 4k units total) in comparison to the numbers of other WF tractors produced. since the engines would have been painted yellow prior to assembly - I'd also guess it was unlikely Kohler kept them or could divert them from lines they produced for other customers, so would think they would have been produced and purchased up front. For a series of only 4000 tractors, even with a 20% sparing policy, that would have only ever been 800 "extra" engines produced. I'd guess this could go either way. Due to the limited number of 169s, they could have been easy to obtain. Or, they might have been difficult to get a hold of, even considering a 20% sparing policy, which seems it could be a bit high an assumption for such a reliable engine...

I think the issue is still a mystery.

-Calvin
 
Denny, I believe the 982 you mentioned is the one that Myron B. bought. BTW, Myron is in Texas. Myron may have bought the entire dealership, or at least the parts inventory, which became Cub Cadet Supply Room a forum sponsor.

Myron, please correct me if I got any of that wrong.
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