Archive through February 14, 2012

[mgonitzke]

Tom-

Don't think so, and no, in that order.

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt: You could be a bit more loquacious, you know. It takes me longer to read your short notes than if you spelled everything out.

By-the-way, thanks for correcting my diagnosis of Richard's starting issues the other day; when I stopped to think, I realized (as you did), that the issue couldn't have been the wiring.

 

[digger]

Personally I see nothing wrong with Matt's answer!

 

[bjohnson]

Don T. Also, the head on the right looks like it's been milled down quite a bit. You better check and make sure it still has enough meat on it.

 

[hydroharry]

Jeremiah - you seem to be changing your tune. I agreed with both you and Matt the other day on the problem Richard has (or hopefully "had"). I thought you eluded to someone possibly switching around one of the wires in the plug. As I recall it's a 4 pin switch but a 5 connector plug (for unknown reason), and someone could have switch a wire around to use a different style key switch. I think this "could" be a basis for having 12v in the run position but 0v in the start position. I really thought by your message that this type of problem/issue was what you spent 2 years chasing. I also agreed with Matt, that Richard could have 2 bad switches.

Bill J - you got some nice new items there. I saw your pics of the 1650 the other day and noticed the hydraulic lift handle is really leaning. It's supposed to be vertical. It's much easier to get at the set up and linkage with the gas tank and firewall out of the way so you might want to check that out (I don't see a gas tank in the pics so I hope you have one).
Also, do you have the side panels/covers that enclose the engine?

Kraig - yikes! What's that sticking thru the window of the Kohler K321 in your pic?

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but they do operate better with the windows closed)

 

[jchamberlin]

Gee Harry, you're right --I was right!

Seriously, yes, I spent two years trying to work around the fact that when I turned the key to the start position I was engaging the "Battery", the "Start", and the "Gen/Alt" terminals. You should have seen some of the schemes I came up with to try to work around this issue. Then one day the light bulb went off and I realized I didn't need the "Gen/Alt" terminal to START the tractor.

However, I wouldn't classify the problem as a wiring issue, because you could replace the harness all day long, unless the terminals in the plug matched the key connections you wouldn't get anywhere.

I took Matt to mean that the "wiring" wasn't the problem (that is, there was nothing wrong with the physical wires --no shorts or opens); the problem was the connections --specifically connections at the key.

I think everyone is agreed that the key connections were Richard's problem. Matt's kibitzing clarified my loquacious comments (and I was being brief!).

 

[dtanner]

Brian Johnson

Funny how so much info on here comes full circle.
1. that head came on the 125 when I bought it . the tractor was rebuilt but never ran. the rebuild the po did left a bad scratch in the bore with a .20 rebore. I did install the carb and a few more necessary parts so I could start the 12 K but could never get fire. it did back fire a few times.I think I will have to check the new switch installed by the PO to see if the wires go where they should.

2. I wonder if I should put that head on and measure valve clearance ? Engine would roll over with no issues before my .030 rebore. I guess I could run a small round bead of silicone on the valves and install the head and see how far the valve clearance is when the 12 K turns.I bet the head gasket gives a bunch of clearance to the head for valves to run.

I do want to post a picture of my dip stick. The top cover is loose on the shaft of the oil stick. I now need to know how long that dip stick should be from the bottom to the cap . I think it is a must know to get a proper oil level. I will have the cap welded in place once I know how long it should be.The job of refurbing a none runner is a bunch of work,I have run into more than a few issues that this site has helped me over come. Thanks again guys .

 

[thoffman]

Matt,
That works for me. No sence wasting good air.

 

[digger]

Little Donnie Tanner,
You better let us know when you post that pic of your dip stick so we can all activate the ENLARGE function on our screens!

 

[jbaker]

I was wondering is there any law,ethic or unwritten rule regarding selling a vin tag removed from a cub frame before scrapping?

 

[digger]

Jeff B.
Nope
But I would remove it and keep it anyway!

 

[mgallinaro]

JEFF,

Any car or truck with a MSO or State Issued Title, the vin plate needs to go through the crusher with the vehicle. Most scrap and salvage yards want a title that shows you are the owner before they pay you for the vehicle. Swapping a vin plate on a car or truck will bring you ALL KINDS OF TROUBLE THAT GETS REAL EXPENSIVE REAL FAST!

Since there is no MSO or State Issued title with a Cub there should be no problems if the plate is not on the tractor. The serial number plate on a tractor mower or any piece of yard equipment is more for the Manufacturer's records than anything else.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Don T., I have the part in question. It was still attached to the windowed block. What exactly was wrong with yours? I want to check mine to be sure it doesn't have the same problem before I send it off to you. I'll clean it up and check it tomorrow evening.

Harry, I do believe that is the cam.

 

[hydroharry]

Jeremiah - thank you for your understanding that you were correct. I previously noted I agreed with Matt but that was on the basis I understood his post as referring to the wires themeselves and the switches, but not addressing whether the wires in the connector plug were in agreement with the pins on the switch. I certainly hope we hear from Richard. As for your post being loquacious, unfortunately I can't agree. I myself have a long standing reputation of lengthy posts - and I do this in large part to help insure I cover all the possibilities I'm aware of. I don't necessarily want the members on here to take the information and run, only to miss a later post by Paul Harvey "and now for the rest of the story" which follows:

I cannot claim any credit for your 2 year effort on your 782 wiring since I've never worked a 782. However, back before the internet, before parts purchases on the net, before this Forum, I had ocassion to work over a few xx8/xx9 and QL units with Indak key switches. At that time I made my parts purchases at my closest Cub Cadet dealer, whom 99% of the time had the parts I needed in stock. I recall purchasing a replacement key switch for a price of approx. $38. Not long after I was with my wife at a local lawn/garden/florist type shop and noticed a small collection of power equipment replacement parts, mostly branded Rotary and Champion, but also a small collection of an unknown brand of key switches that happen to look exactly like my recent purchase. The keys included were stamped INDAK so it seemed they may well be the very same switch although the store had no cross reference to match my CC machines. They were priced at just over $8.00 if I recall correctly. I purchased one for comparison to the old switch only to discover the pin connectors were in the same pattern but the labelling noted they were not in the correct contact pattern. I kept this switch on my shelf until I needed another, and then, as you seem to discover with your 782, at the time I needed a replacement switch I moved or re-routed the wires within the connector plug so they matched the switch pins. It really wasn't that hard to do and I did it several times on other units (although sometimes the wires were difficult to remove from the plug). I had ocassion after this experience to shop around a little for my parts, and eventually discovered based on prices from 2 other Cub Cadet dealers, that my most local dealer was charging me a 50% premium over what was identified as MSRP prices by the other dealers. As much as I had had a preference for my 1st dealer I couldn't justify that type of pricing, and I soon developed a great relationship with another local dealer, who sold both CCC parts and some aftermarket parts. As Paul Harvey may have noted "And there you have the rest of the story".

Donald T - on your dipstick, I know we're all waiting for the picture as Charlie noted, but I have a suggestion. 1st, I don't think I'd recommend welding do to appearance, distoration, and probability of failure. Having a loose dipstick cap is fairly common on the long Kohler dip sticks. Usually you can slide the cap up and see the impressions/indentations by Kohler where the cap is to be in its fixed location. You can usually re-hammer these indentations so the cap can't slide down past them, but may still come up past them. I would re-hammer these flatten areas to see if you can stop the cap from sliding down the dipstick. Once this is done you can hold the cap level against this stop, and scribe a mark on the stick. Then pull the cap up and away and drill a very small, fine hole no larger than 1/16 diameter in the center of the scribe mark. Then return the cap to the correct location and insert an appropriate size spring roll pin (1/16 diameter)about 1/4" in length (my neighbor in CT had an amazing collection of these), or a small R clip if you can find one, or even a short piece of wire that will just fit the hole and can be crimped around the dipstick. With a little luck the cap will fit snug, but even if it's a little wobbly it should be at the correct location on the stick for use. Also, you're probably already aware that you may need to expand the lower part of the dipstick where it's been cut vertically in the center and flexed open to provide a pressure fit inside the tube. This is just a suggestion. Once you post a pic of your dipstick I may have a further suggestion.

Kraig - I was afraid that might be part of the balance gear mount. Was their location altered when the cam existed the window?

Also, for those of you that may be wondering. No, Charlie has not provided me special dispensation for the length of my posts. My posts are within the allowed limits.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and there are often many ways to skin catepillars)

 

[mgonitzke]

Just to clarify here, since my post about the ignition switch seems to be getting slightly misinterpreted- He posted that with the original switch, he had 12V at the coil in the 'run' position, but not in the start position. If this is happening, it cannot be the wiring or the external connection at the switch, and it has to be internal to the switch. Not to mention this is the most common failure mode for the switch in my experience. In fact, I don't think I've had a bad ignition switch that didn't fail in this manner.

He said he tried two switches and they both acted the same way. It is very possible they were both bad in the same way. I doubt either switch was incorrect, because the ignition was off in the 'off' position and on in the 'run' position of the key switch. It would not do this if it was a magneto switch, which is what practically all generic replacement key switches are.

 

[dtanner]

Charlie "Digger" Proctor

Kraig M

The screw threads and striped and where the throttle cable goes through ,that hole is enlarged and won`t hold the cable.

Harry , Matt

Well the information is great. I don`t know if a wire or switch is my issue, but now I know there is a possibility that some PO could have changed the wires to pin contact to fit a switch.Just one more thing to check in hopes of a running , charging Cub after my refurb .

Mat G

I`am still waiting for your write up on the Camera you bought . I have put off my purchase knowing you would post what you found !

dip stick pictures later !

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt: I'm not sure you've clarified the issue for me. I'll bet if you go out to a tractor that has what MTD calls a "Battery" switch (as opposed to an "Ignition" switch), that is, a key switch designed to operate a coil powered ignition instead of a magneto fired ignition; and you switch the "Gen/Alt" terminal with the "Ignition" terminal you will see the symptoms similar to what I experienced for two years. Namely, the engine will "run" fine, but it will refuse to start.

For clarity, and in the spirit of Hydro Harry, the particular configuration I was trying to operate was a CCC 782 with chassis wiring for a coil-fired ignition mated to a magneto-fired engine (actually two of them installed one after the other). I used an interposing relay to convert the positive voltage originally destined for the (+) side of the coil into a "kill" contact for the magneto (through the N/C contact of the relay). The motor ran fine with the key in either the "Run" position, or the "Run w/Lights" position, and with the relay in the circuit, the motor shut off with the key. The problem was that relay refused to energize with the key in the "Start" position. I wound up rigging an ON-OFF-ON switch to energize the relay directly from the battery (thus disabling the "kill" contact to the magneto) just so I could start the tractor. With the tractor started, and the key in the "Run" position, I could manipulate the switch again to bring the interlocks into play and allow the tractor to be turned off with the key, or simply kill the motor with the auxiliary switch. It was a awkward solution, but I couldn't figure out why the motor wouldn't start with the key until the light bulb went off and I realized that I simply needed to put the "Ignition" contact at the key in the circuit when I started the tractor, not the "Gen/Alt" contact as the plug was currently wired. Once I switched the wires, everything worked as intended.

Note: Once the motor was rotating, it provided "Ignition" voltage for the whole tractor through the "Gen/Alt" contact, that is, "back feeding" the Ignition circuit through the N/O seat switch contact.

My motivation for all this trouble was to arm what I called the "safety circuit" so that the motor shut off if the operator tried to get off the tractor with the electric PTO engaged: which it did with the key in the "Run" position and the relay in the circuit. Paradoxically, without the seat switch in the circuit, the tractor started, ran, and stopped just fine with the switch wired up incorrectly!

I've written the whole story up with pictures and wiring diagrams, but the account ran to 40 pages, so I've been trying to edit it before posting it to my "Unconfugilating a 782 SN 714899" thread. I'm discovering that it is not hard for me to be wordy, but it is difficult to be wordy AND CLEAR. Harry has a real gift for it.

 

[pbell]

Jeff B
I would say the ethics of it could be a "problem" if the removed tag (or other part containing the serial number) was used on another tractor to represent it as being something it was not.

 

[kphill]

Last year someone on E-Bay had a serial number plate off of a scrap 169 for sale for $50.00.. A person could take a 1x9 series and build a fake 169 from it and who would know?..There is nothing illegal about it..But ethical may be another story..

 

[kmcconaughey]

Don, OK. I'll clean it up and inspect it and get it sent off if it's serviceable. Did you just need the cable clamp part or did you need/want the entire assembly?

Harry, I never really inspected the block to see what caused the window. It was not my tractor when it happened. It was just a parts tractor I purchased from "Big John" Buszkiewicz. John is(was?) in Indiana, the tractor was hauled to Wisconsin for me by Ryan Mull just prior to a Plow Day near Menomonie, WI. That was back in 2003. There no telling how much that part moved during all the transportation it went through before it made it to me. The block was cracked worse than that closeup photo shows. Here's a couple of better views, both of these photos were taken the day I took delivery of it which was at Art Aytay's property the day before the plow day. One other thing I should mention, the head off of this engine went to Charlie to repair his 1450 after it blew a head gasket (I believe due to a warped head

) at a plow day at Travis Schweizer's place in Iowa. Did you get all that? Whew.