Cranky K341

[Jim Saunders]

Just bought a cub 1560 and now having a tough time starting the beast. I've checked everything. Compression is 90-100 add oil and jumps to 100-110. Has spark with the H10 plug, gap is correct. The governor appears to be set correctly with the shaft set to the far left and arm set away from the carburetor. The only thing that I'm not so sure about is the gap on the points. The guy who owned it before me has some type of electronic timing improvement and there is a separate box installed with a red light that blinks when it is running. I'm at a loss....any help out there?


Jim

 

[gary noblit]

Jim,,almost any small engine .018 to .020 will make it run.no clue what your red light is...if you have spark give it a shot of carb cleaner it should fire( I did not say starting fluid)

 

[dschwandt]

It's one of Dave Kirks point savers.
I have them on mine.
Best bet is to static time the engine to make sure everything is in sync.
What is it doing?
Not firing, kicking back on the compression stroke, Outside in the cold or what?

 

[kmcconaughey]

Jim, WELCOME! I assume you meant 1650, not 1560.

 

[Jim Saunders]

Your right Kraig 1650, didn't have my 10th cup of coffee that day.

The engine will not fire up. I checked the compression which when cranked is 90-100lbs. When I squirt in oil it top off at 100-110 lbs. The plug is firing. I removed the plug and fired it up on the head, I can see good spark. I could check the governor again? With a solid compression of over 100 does that not tell me that the valves are set correctly? I suspect the carb is bad, I did order another few days ago. When I bought this 1650 it did run, but not very well.



Jim

 

[dmerkle]

Try an Autolite sparkplug.
I never had any luck with champion plugs

 

[dschwandt]

Have you had a look at the catrb at all?
Should be a #30
Give it a quick shot of carb cleaner and try.
I'll bet this is carb/fuel related.
Got a good flow of fuel through the line?
There is a filter inside the tank, you must remove the shut off to access, it is actually part of the shut off. seated in a bung, just pull it to remove.
Check the carb and rebuild as needed.
A kit is only about $15

 

[Jim Saunders]

Dale
Will try the autolight

Dave
When I squirt starting fluid down the carb the engine starts. As long as I keep up with the fluid the engine continues to run [erratic.] The fuel supply is strong, however, it might be old gasoline. It is a #30 as stamped, but I suspect either bad gas, bad carb or a combination of both. Rebuild kit is a good idea. Did order a cheapy carb from Amazon.

Thanks guys for all the help.

Jim

 

[dschwandt]

I'd pull the tank and proceed to go thru the whole fuel system, what there is of it, ain't much at all really.
Pull the cup off the bottom of the carb and check to see if the float and needle are not stuck, and drain that old fuel while you are at it.

Good luck!

 

[gary noblit]

Jim,don't mean to preach but starting fluid can have some bad side effects...Dave also said carb cleaner..95% of the engines I work on is fuel related issues,mostly old gas or water and dirty carb

Dale
Will try the autolight

Dave
When I squirt starting fluid down the carb the engine starts. As long as I keep up with the fluid the engine continues to run [erratic.] The fuel supply is strong, however, it might be old gasoline. It is a #30 as stamped, but I suspect either bad gas, bad carb or a combination of both. Rebuild kit is a good idea. Did order a cheapy carb from Amazon.

Thanks guys for all the help.

Jim

 

[dschwandt]

Jim,don't mean to preach but starting fluid can have some bad side effects...Dave also said carb cleaner..95% of the engines I work on is fuel related issues,mostly old gas or water and dirty carb

I would not use starting fluid.
And use the carb cleaner sparingly as to not wash down the cylinder walls.
If flooded, pull the plug and clean and dry it with one of those small hand held torches.

I use 1 oz per gal. of marvel mystery oil in all my fuel year round and nothing else.
For storage, shut the fuel off and let run out of gas and don't forget to turn off the key!
Also, my batteries come out and taken inside.

 

[hydroharry]

Dale
Will try the autolight

Dave
When I squirt starting fluid down the carb the engine starts. As long as I keep up with the fluid the engine continues to run [erratic.] The fuel supply is strong, however, it might be old gasoline. It is a #30 as stamped, but I suspect either bad gas, bad carb or a combination of both. Rebuild kit is a good idea. Did order a cheapy carb from Amazon.

Thanks guys for all the help.

Jim

Jim - you say the fuel supply is strong. Assume you mean you're getting good flow from the tank to the carb. You also say as long as you keep up with the starting fluid the engine continues to run.

Well, then, I'm wondering:
1 - when you try to start it giving it several tries and it doesn't start, have you pulled the plug to see if it's wet? (don't exceed 20 secs without giving the starter a few minutes to cool).
If the plug is wet then you are getting fuel to the plug, and you likely have bad fuel that is not firing. Drain the tank and the carb bowl, and try fresh fuel. Be careful when you drain the bowl to make sure you don't screw up the gaskets. Even doing it very carefully you may end up having to replace the bowl gaskets.
If the plug is NOT wet then you have a carb problem. The most likely culprit is the needle and seat. You can try tapping lightly on the side of the carb with the handle of a screwdriver. Sometimes that will cause the needle to dis-lodge and allow fuel to flow into the bowl. Otherwise, it's time for a rebuild kit.

And for what it's worth, the old #30 Kohler carbs are really the best for these machines. I wouldn't bother with a cheap aftermarket - just put in the rebuild kit, and she'll probably purr like a kitten.

 

[Jim Saunders]

Harry and everybody else

When I try to start the engine the plug is wet.
I did recondition the carb, new needle and seat, new gaskets etc.
I think I had a problem with the bad gas [since refilled with fresh gas] and low compression. I don't understand why I had 90-100lbs initially and 100-110 after squirting oil into the cylinder. Just recently I recorded 84-85lbs, and 90lbs when squirting oil into the cylinder. Is it possible that the carb cleaner created this situation?
After the check I squirted some more oil into the cylinder and the engine did start. Once going the engine sounded pretty good.
Check my logic on this approach:

1. Pull the head and check for a leak.
2. Lap the valves and adjust.
3. Now the tricky part.
Make a determination on whether to replace the piston, rings and rod. I could replace with standard components. I guess a lot of that depends on how it mics out. One guy told me to just remove the piston, hone the cylinder replace the rings [standard] an everything would be fine. What is my best option? Really could use some advice.



Jim

 

[mgonitzke]

The service manual is a free download from Kohler's website. It has all of the information needed to determine whether the parts are too worn to be reused or not.

Honing and re-ringing without measuring anything is not a good plan.

 

[kphill]

Jim, K series Kohler engines are equipped with a ACR on the camshaft.. ACR stands for automatic compression release.. the way it works is when the engine is at low rpm it prevents the exaust valve from seating completely and makes it easier to crank over.. after engine fires and cam shaft speed increases it releases and allows the exaust valve to fully seat..This is why a compression tester is pretty much useless on these engines.. also why you are getting different readings...

 

[kphill]

Replace plug with a good Autolite and put some fresh gas in it and if you are getting spark it will start..

 

[gary noblit]

Jim, I recently replaced cam and acr in a 321 .I was getting 200 on comp.prior to replacing. acr wasn't working,the starter couldn' fight that much comp.After changing I had 90 on comp and it worked fine. The acr is a c shape fastened to cam with a small pin that fits into cam slot.slow rpm means starter speed.the acr is held by spring wire in place and the pin will be in cam.When engine fires centrifigal force throws the acr (c shape) out from cam and pulls the pin out also .While in, the pin bumps the lifter each rev to raise the ex. valve a very small amount for some relief....I don't believe one can buy the acr seperate,it's fastened to the cam ..yep, expensive $300 range.All I found on old one was a few scratches ..All this to say be positive before you rip the engine out and the pan off

Harry and everybody else

When I try to start the engine the plug is wet.
I did recondition the carb, new needle and seat, new gaskets etc.
I think I had a problem with the bad gas [since refilled with fresh gas] and low compression. I don't understand why I had 90-100lbs initially and 100-110 after squirting oil into the cylinder. Just recently I recorded 84-85lbs, and 90lbs when squirting oil into the cylinder. Is it possible that the carb cleaner created this situation?
After the check I squirted some more oil into the cylinder and the engine did start. Once going the engine sounded pretty good.
Check my logic on this approach:

1. Pull the head and check for a leak.
2. Lap the valves and adjust.
3. Now the tricky part.
Make a determination on whether to replace the piston, rings and rod. I could replace with standard components. I guess a lot of that depends on how it mics out. One guy told me to just remove the piston, hone the cylinder replace the rings [standard] an everything would be fine. What is my best option? Really could use some advice.



Jim

 

[mjame]

If you decide you want a cam with the arc let me know I have several that are in outstanding condition and I’m only right down the road from you.

 

[Jim Saunders]

also why you are getting different readings...

I don't know why he readings are different. Initially when I checked the compression it read 90-100lbs. When I squirted oil into the cylinder the compression rose to 100-110lbs. I'm getting 90-100lbs of pressure, doesn't that negate any problems with the ACR? When I squirt oil into the cylinder and ten try to start the engine, the engine will start, but it's a hard start. What is a good start compression for a 1650? I also replaced the plug with an Autolight per dmerkle's recommendation. Might need to start over on the analysis?


Jim

 

[gary noblit]

Jim,Squirting oil in the cylinder helps seal rings,valve guides etc. from blow by but also makes your fuel mix quite heavy when it fires.You're saying it fires that way,then you should be getting a lot of smoke for a bit until oil burns away. If your getting 90 on comp. oil isn't needed. If your acr was stuck or wire spring was broke (it's possible) but not logical then comp. would not be consistent..Opinion :20# variable means nothing to me.You never said you changed condenser ???...Frankly I still think it's electrical..Points,wire from and to,plug wire or even plug..Even new plugs have been known to fail. You've said your fuel is good then no.2 is good spark, with 90 comp. it should run.You might have a short in any of those wires that grounds the spark "sometimes".....Be methodical and persistent you have enough comp.You need fuel and spark....