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Archive through September 03, 2013

IH Cub Cadet Forum

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Gerry Ide

Thanks for that info. I run my loader just under 1/2 throttle when working it and move it wot when the bucket has a load and I`am moving for more than a few feet. seems to be working out for me . The engine in the 129 is bored .010 and is a strong running engine.

Denny , I never thought of cutting the points cover to help removing and installing the cover. The light when on here . I will give that a try. I do have all my tractor frames drilled and it still is a pain with not being able to see what your doing . I can see the slot cut in the cover working real nice.

Have a great Day Cubbers !
 
GERRY - So THAT's how the Kohler rods get oiled? (Sarcasm there!) I wish I had some fresh Plasti-gage, I'd measure the rod clearance in the old rod I ran 1400 hours in my K241 for you. It was an OEM sized rod, I didn't grind the journal .010" U/S so I suspect it was a bit looser than recommended when I built the engine back in '85. But the wear on the big end of the rod was minimal after 1400 hours of "LUGGING".

I broke the engine in on Valvoline 10W-40 because I used it in EVERYTHING. Then I switched to 10W-40 ARCO Graphite oil, then used Valvoline 10W-40 Turbo V oil, then straight 10W-40 Valvoline again for a while, then in '96 switched to 15W-40 Rotella until I retired it in '05. Normal run time between oil changes was 30-40 hours.

To put things into perspective, even at an extremely slow idle speed of 900 RPM, the oil finger on the rod cap is dipping into the bottom of the pan looking for oil FIFTEEN TIMES A SECOND. I think it would be neat if Mythbusters would do a show on Kohler engines, put a plexiglas window in the block & oil pan and see just how much "liquid oil" accumulates in the bottom of the oil pan on a Kohler engine at various engine speeds. I suspect they oil about the same way a 2-stroke engine does, by gathering oil mist or vapor and routing it up along the finger on the down stroke of the piston till it finds the oil hole in the rod cap to lube the rod bearing.
 
BRIAN W., Gerry - I bought a set of Craftsman screw drivers 30-35 yrs ago that had two springy fingers on the straight blade screw drivers to hold screws while you started them. The masking tape solution I mention in an earleir post works ten times better. The fingers get in the way, plus if the screw head is small, the fingers don't hold well, and if the slot in the screw isn't PERFECT the screw driver will "cam out" dropping the screw. The style of screw starting screwdriver with the center portion of the blade that's spring-loaded and twists to hold the screw on the blade is much better, but once again, a "perfect slot" on the screw is needed. I also have a Phillips head screw starter, has two "V" shaped blades that spring out to hold onto the four slots that works pretty well. But it's still hard to beat a socket head screw or better yet, a TORX.

I used to buy #4-40 flat head & pan head TORX screws by the box of 100 from McMaster-Carr years ago when SON raced an Associated RC10-GT off-road gas R/C truck. A box of 100 3/4" or 1" long cost about what a baggie of 4-5 allen head screws cost from the hobby shop and I could cut them to ANY length and were much better screws. The stock flat head screws included with the truck were allen heads, but it was really hard to tighten them much since they only had a .050" HEX recess in their head. Never had a problem getting the TORX head screws tight, think they had a T10 size recess.
 
Dennis: I can dip my finger in oil 15 times a second too, but it's not how the oil gets there, but what it does to prevent friction - it's not all just "ball bearings" keeping the metal-to-metal contact from happening. I don't have time right now to find the reference document, but I believe it was from Mobil, or one of the other old line refineries.....

With the various part time "occupations" I've had over the past 50 or so years, I've accumulated just about every type of screw starter ever built. For steel screws, a magnetic screwdriver is still the handiest. I've got a DC coil from a servo that I use with a 12 volt battery to charge 'em.

Beautiful weather here in lower central MI.. Getting both the Cub and the Scag out - mow lawn and cut a couple of apple trees down that've finally given up the ghost...
 
GERRY - I bet you can dip your finger in oil fifteen times a second... Yeah... Sure...

But by definistion... and design, ball and roller bearings have metal-to-metal contact, but it's rolling contact, not sliding contact and the inherent friction & heat that would cause. But yes, they need lubrication too, either grease for slow speed bearings, or oil in ever thinner viscosities as the speed increases. I read Gordon Jennings tech articles in Cycle magazine way back in the late 1960's & early 1970's too. Especially the one where he was having main and rod bearing problems in his Kawasaki road race bike.

And I underatand the dynamics of the tidal wave or Tsunami of oil created inside the big end of the rod bearing between it and the rod journal. Really, the design isn't all that bad. Chevy used a similar oil system for oiling the rods in the Blue Flame 6's they built from 1937 till 1963, the 216, 235, and 261 CID 6's. Main bearings were pressure lubed, rods were splash lubed. And I bet they got the guts lugged out of them ALL the time!

I'm not going to start an oil debate here. But if you want to discuss Tribology, That's O-K.

I'd think you wouldn't want to stick magnetized screwdrivers inside the guts of a computer.
 
Since no one mentioned it beeswax on the tip of your screwdriver works very well for holding that screw. Of course socket head screws and beeswax are the best!!!
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I have a screwdriver that as you slide the lower part of the handle down the tip expands to fit the screw slot and hold the screw. Have had it forever but can't remember where I got it. Comes in real handy.
 
Bill - guess you could say I was "up late and out early" (hehehe).

Shultzie - and you were worried about the hydro pump? Heck, if I were you I'd remove the mowing deck, pull that trailer into the garage and start polishing the paint up, and shining the hub cabs, being very very careful around the IH emblems. Won't matter if you have a hydro pump problem, just keep it on the trailer and drive it around town, and to the shows and all. Sure looks like a nice original unit.

Marlin - thanks for your support of my thoughts. Also, glad to see/hear you're making good use of some old parts. I'll bet most of your time with the steering columns was cleaning them up and getting rid of the old grease. Or was it looking for the little ball bearing that drop out when you open up and separate the column parts.

Brian W - geez, I should have mentioned something about you replacing the coil as well. Now that can be a real pain on an AQS engine. Most of the guys on here probably don't realize it's mounted sideways on the right side tin heat shield covering the cooling fins. That tin is often cracked and rattles. If you couldn't easily access the mount tension screw holding the coil, and you removed the coil "mounting bracket" screws so you could remove the coil, you were likely in trouble getting it all back together, especially with the condensor mounted with one of the mount screws. You need about 4 hands to keep everything in place and get it back together. It's another one of those live and learn, and you'll know better how to do it next time. Since you started first by removing the coil for testing I'll bet this was a big source of your frustration even after you replaced the coil. Sorry I had forgotten all about these issues. I really thought you'd start with the points, clean them up, and that would have been your problem. By the way, I never had a problem with the coil on my 1st 1450, but I did replace that tin shield one time. I do hear stories of these coils failing frequently now - suspected to be from the heat being trapped around it with the side panel enclosure, especially cutting grass in the summer. Never quite understood this until I became more aware of the cheaper lower quality replacement coils around these days. Hope your replacement holds up for a good long while.

Jeremiah - where ya hiding? Are you out in your shop working on that prototype? Waiting for the glue to dry on the paper version? I'm waiting for some type of report.
 
Schultzie... Fancy says, "SWEET!!!"
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Hydro Harry. You're right about getting all the old grease out and although I was careful with the ball bearings somehow three found their way to the garage floor. Everytime I looked down I'd see one that somehow got past my being extra careful. I was amazed at how that supposedly good steering column had the top metal part of the bearing holder literally worn and torn to shreds.

This weekend I'm supposed to go and pick up a parts 1650 with a freshly overhauled engine. The engine is going into Fancy's 1650 and we're finally taking the time to get HIS 1650 up and running. The engine in his is in dire need of an overhaul and for what I'm getting the "parts" tractor for is less than overhaulling his engine. That poor little kitty has waited too many years just seeing that 1650 sit in the corner of the garage. Even though I'm scheduled to work both days this weekend, it wll be fun to start wrenching on a 1650 again. (If I'm not worn out from the nine hour days and two six hour weekend days.)
 
Dennis - The big end of Kohler K series rods are plain bearing in all those I've seen apart, hence my comments about watching higher engine loads at slow speed. AFAIK, the main reason for replacing rods and grinding cranks on 'em is they are egg shaped after years of wear. From what I've been told, more Kohler rods are replaced due to wear than to catastrophic fatigue failure.. No argument about the roller or ball mains not normally scuffing, although they DO roll in lubricant..
(OT)
There isn't much in a computer other than the storage media that is sensitive to magnetic fields and if you saw what it takes to actually alter the media, you wouldn't worry about a screwdriver, unless you had a HDD apart and were dragging the screwdriver on a platter or were doing the same to floppy disks..the HHDs have very powerful magnets in the motors, just thousandths away from the edge of the platters...

And my fingers are fast on the keyboard, but I agree, not that fast
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Denny I have a block the myth-busters can have as it already has a window in it.

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Steve B. and Don T.

Your loader talk comes at the right time. I'm knee deep in building a 129 loader tractor right now. I did a total super steer axle and steering box upgrade Monday.
Does anyone have a relatively developed plan for a foot-controlled hydro? I can build about anything but I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
 
Rick Beem

I made few errors in judgement when I built my loader. Notice the ag tires on the front of my loader. I thought I would need the traction ; but now wish I would have bought ribbed tires and added more air so the load would be carried on the center ribs. They would steer easier I bet. I know now to make the foot control work . I just need a good foot controller. I don`t want to get into springs to center for neutral. I should have taken some pictures of my Bolens 1660 I sold. It had a great foot control system.toe out the tractor when forward and heel down the tractor stopped, remove your foot and the tractor when to neutral.I sure with a good working foot control the loader will work much better . There are too many things to do when working a loader and I only have two hands.One hand to steer and one hand for the loader controls would be cats if one had foot controls .
Please let me know if you find a system that works great. I need something to copy .
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Gerry Ide

I have to ask; I have been thinking that the next engine I do I want to add an insert bearing to the rod. I wonder if it would make the rod wear longer and possibly get better lubrication ?

I`ll read your comments later in the AM because it is 1 am here now.I will be thinking Cub engines tonight in my dreams ! lol
 
Don - as far as I'm concerned, not unless you are building a puller..the cost isn't worth the benefit- I'd just go with a new rod and keep the oil clean.
 
Harry, et el.

Actually, putting the points cover on wasn't that difficult for me. I had a little trouble getting the gasket and hole lined up, and putting the cover on the rubber grommet that encircles the points wire is a bit of a challenge, until one breaks out the needle nose pliers. I do thank everyne for the suggestions. I am sure they will help another someday.

Long before I owned a Cub Cadet, I came into the possession of a K-D Tool #2287. This little gadget has a straight blade on it that is in three pieces. The center piece turns against the slot sides and holds the screw to help get it started. Yes, Harry, it was thoughtful of IH to put that slot in the frame, just so that this tool perfectly fits in the hole. That tool works well for Chrysler distributors too, when changing the points. I have a similar tool for Phillips heads too. That one works well when working on wheelchair lifts.

The Nightmare runs well; I think a little better than it did before all this happened to it. I
really enjoyed a night time cruise through the neighborhood, and am impressed with all the light those 4411's give off. The battery seemed to stay charged throughout, so I doubt there is any damage to the stator or charging system. Along with the new seat, lights were the best thing I have done to improve that tractor.

Thank you again, everyone. This is where everyone knows xxxx xx xxx and everyone cares about the Cub problems of others so they can be solved for the common good.
 
GERRY - Yes, all the K-series Kohlers have plain rod bearings. No inserts, just probably a mix of tin & lead coated onto the bearing surface some how. Now my B48G Onan in the 982 has inserts on at least the main bearings, have to check the manual to see if it has rod bearing inserts. The camshaft even rides on inserts.

I've mic'd several K-series crankshafts, and what I've seen is they wear "HOLES" in the rod journal. I'll measure three places along the length of the journal at 45 degrees around the journal and they will be round and no taper within spec then there will be a "hole" over .001" deep in one spot. Which some people could probably run for many hours without an issue but I'll have the journal ground .010" U/S and get a new U/S rod. As we've discussed here many times, aluminum has a finite fatigue life so any time the engine gets run enough to need rings it gets a new rod and exh. valve. I use the same machine shop Dave Kirk uses. The shop's owner rebuilt the K241 in his off-topic tractor a couple years ago and Dave posted a picture of the exh. valve from that engine. The valve stem under the valve head was eroded away and barely 1/8" diameter.

Like I said in my last post, the splash lube system was used in the old Blue Flame Chevy 6's on the rod bearings. And a 235 or 261 CID 6 fed by a little one bbl carb was NOT over-powering a loaded 2-ton truck back in those days so you know they were getting lugged to death on a frequent basis and still running for years without needing shims removed from the rod caps to tighten them up. I'm not really worried about running my engines at 1800-2000-2400 RPM under partial load.

Ohhh and as for ball & roller bearings "Rolling" in oil... you do know what would happen if a Kohler roller main bearing was rolling in oil at 3600 RPM with eleven balls between the races? With 660 balls passing by a point every second, there wouldn't be much liquid oil there to lube them. And if there was, the liquid oil would act as a wheel chock and stop them spinning and they'd start skidding, get hot and fail. That's what was happening to Gordon Jenning's road race Kawi that he was writing about in Cycle magazine. But I think his engine speeds were more in the 9000-12,000 RPM range.

Interesting fact, the turbo in my diesel pickup spins at roughly 100,000 RPM under full boost, which is about 15-16 PSI. It has a plain bearing insert in it, and the insert is also supported by liquid oil, mostly for cooling. Some turbo's run up to 150,000 RPM, but typically those are all smaller turbo's.

DON T. - I had a Clevite 77 insert installed in the forged Alcoa rod I put in my K321 when I built it 7-8 years ago. It was THE hardest part to find, in fact was the reason why it took me over THREE years to build that engine. I know people have machined stock diecast K-series rods to accept inserts but you have to machine the bore on the big end larger to accept the insert by almost 3/16ths of an inch. I would not be comfortable machining that much material away on a stock diecast Kohler rod. The forged rod doesn't really have any more material on the big end, but the mechanical properties of a forged aluminum alloy are so much better than the standard diecast rod that from what I've read, the RPM limit of the forged rod is around 6000-6500 RPM verses 4000 RPM for the stock rod. Only thing better than the Alcoa fprged rod is the machined billet rod like MWSC sells which has an 8000+ RPM limit. But REMEMBER... the flywheel is still the weak link here... the stock cast iron flywheel should not be spun over 4000 RPM in spite of what rod you have in the engine.

I still need to put another THOUSAND hours of run time on the K321 to see if the bearing insert allows the rod journal to run without wearing as much as it would with the stock rod & bearing. I'm not near as paranoid about the fatigue life of the forged rod either. If the stock diecast rod runs 1400 hrs without failure the forged rod should last 2000-3000 hrs, maybe more.
 
Thanks for the comments guys. I haven't had a chance to check out the hydro. yet. (<font size="-2">I'm working on a CCC project</font>)
 
Harry: I haven't forgotten the Heat Baffle project, but going through my notes, given your overall dimension of the finished piece of 9-3/4" and the dimensions you've given me for the flat runs as well as the angles measured with a protractor, things aren't quite adding up. To get the overalls, I've had to shrink the "runs" calculated by your angles. I'll have to go back now and recheck the angles with the new "run" dimensions postulated in order to arrive at the overall 9-3/4". I did go back and check the new side-to-side dimensions in order to verify the angle of the cut on the right side of the tractor, and it comes out closer to 8.1 degree than 8.25 degree; and if that is true, and the angle of the notch is 45 degrees, then the sides of the notche (the cut-off) is 1-0" per side. From your dimensions of the front down-turn, it may have been trimmed a bit more so as not to "stick out" upon bending. I'm getting down to 1/32" at the break points, so I'm thinking I must be running into issues with the gain.

I'm not sure if I want to use cardboard for a mockup, or go straight to the 14 GA material, I would probably use up two pieces of metal in either case until I'm satisfied I have it "perfect" (or throw the mess in the garbage and start looking hard for an NOS or replica piece).
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I'm sorry it is taking me so long, but every minute I spend on this project is time I could be spending wrenching on the Cub, polishing off "Honey Do's" or otherwise occupying myself with the 1-1/2 hours I have each day between breakfast and the time I must begin my 1-hour commute each day.
 
Bought 3 rattle cans of Rustoleum Canvas White fo the cultivator I just got back from the sandblaster and was pleasantly suprised upon checkout that Theisens has it on sale for $3.99 so I went back and got 3 more!!
It's an off white that's almost an exact match for the IH white, IMHO.
 

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