Archive through October 18, 2012

[jnixon]

I have the same problem with my 147 trying to stop when the fuel gets low. Question? Has any one tried installing a mech. fuel pump? The 7 HP Kohler in my WH 753 has one, works fine.

My SG spins on starting some times and I'm at the end of the belt adjustment (Duralast 425 CA) looks like its time for a new belt.

 

[dfrisk]

BRIAN B. - What you may be getting is a cork composite gasket material. It's a rubber material bonding cork together, and depending on the rubber material used may be black or brown. It's a great improvement over just plain pressed cork.

I'm sure Gerry & others will agree with me, that for DECADES, cork valve cover gaskets were used on ALL over-head valve car/truck engines.... and they ALL leaked. Last car I had the valve covers off was the '88 Mustang 5.0L HO. Cork gaskets from the factory even with the polished die cast alum valve covers, to prevent crushing the gaskets they imbedded little steel pins in the gaskets, which ended up sticking to the heads or valve covers and could have potentionally fallen in the engine. We replaced those gaskets with FMC MotorSport HP valve cover gaskets, they were steel stampings then had rubber vulcanized over the steel, like a great big steel core O-ring. Not only did they NEVER leak again, the gaskets were reusable indefinitely! Made the $40/pr cost reasonable compared to the $5-$10/pr for the cork.

BILL J. - I run Firestone lug tires on two of my three CC's, and will have them on all three as soon as Charlie decides to part with a pair of NOS 23-8.50's he found several months ago.

The 23-10.50 & 26-12.00 X 12's F-stones are all 4-ply, the no longer avail 23-8.50's were two ply. I've run my 23-8.50's eleven years and they show no appreciable wear yet. The 26-12.00's on the 982 are about 6-7 yrs old and they still have most of the little molding nibs attached except on the face of the lugs that contacts the ground.

I don't know what Firestone's "GUM DIPPING" process includes, but I think it makes a tremendous difference in how long the tire casings last before cracking/checking due to sun light and ozone, which leads to blown tires if the cracks get bad enough. My FARMALL M has a 50 yr old Firestone on one side, and a 55+/- yr old Gillette tire on the other side, the Firestone looks like new except for 40 yrs of wear, the Gillette (old short-line less than OEM quality brand, but cheap) has cracks deep enough to almost see the inner tube, meaning a blow-out is immenent. Not sure how long the Firestone tires Miller sells will last, Miller is a good supplier, but the tires are made off-shore. But I suspect the tires would last quite a long time. I know the factory GY tires on my 70 & 72 are showing their age, cracks, checks, etc, I've had several blow-outs.

 

[dfrisk]

JAMES N. - re mechanical fuel pump on a K321 in a 147 should be easy, the diamond shaped plate below the carb about 1" tall x 1-12 inches wide held on with two small cap screws is where it would mount. Depending on what you plumb the engine with, rubber or metal fuel line, determines what you need for fittings/filter.

The K321 in my #72 came from a 147 and had the plate for installing the fuel pump.

The fuel pump may or may not cure your fuel issue, if the gas can't run down out of the tank your pump won't be able to pump it. But installing a pump couldn't hurt anything.

 

[kide]

Harry... go back and look at Jeremiah's pictures. NO part of the "upward bend" is above the bottom of the tank (and neither is there any "upward bend" above the bottom of the tank on any of the IH Cubs I've ever seen). To "trap" as you suggest. the 180 degree bend would have to be above the bottom of the tank - at that point, dependinng on the length of the downward part of the tube, gas might still siphon on it's own... Charlie is correct - that's the wrong filter fro a gravity system and BTW, the carbs on a gravity system are designed to work with only the pressure created by the tank being above the carb. Again, when the float drops, the needle opens and fuel flows. If it isn't flowing, the line, filter or tank outlet are restricted....

Dennis - I really like the material in the replacement gasket for the hydro... I don't think mine will ever leak again...

 

[jnixon]

Thanks Dennis, I knew what the plate was for when I re-built the eng. a few years back, just didn't know if any one had tried it. Now to find a fuel pump!
Far too few Cubbers in the Dallas area and my 1650 is still in a basket(s). With winter coming on, there will time though.

 

[kfreeman]

In Jeremiah's photos, it appears that there may be enough of a high spot in the fuel line to trap an air bubble. Depending upon the size of the bubble and the height of the fuel above the bubble, it could significantly reduce the flow through the hose. As the fuel tank emptied, there would be less pressure to push the fuel past the air bubble.

 

[jchamberlin]

I appreciate everyone's responses.

Charlie: The big Kohler fuel filter is installed because the smaller one I got from you stopped up after about three (3) tankfuls of gas. You're looking at the third fuel filter in less than a year. However, given the comments from you and Harry I think I will investigate getting the tank coated on the inside; even a used one is way too expensive to me. (I have a plastic one from a Quiet Line I could install.) I thought I got all the rust out with the marbles and the muriatic acid, oh well. As bad as it looks now, it looked incredibly worse when I first got it.

Lew: A fuel bowl was installed on the tractor when I got it, and I didn't know any better than to replace it with like kind. Please note, though, that the fuel bowl gives everyone an indication of what is going on inside the tank.

Ken: I think you may be right about an air bubble forming inside the line. I'm OK until I run it dry, and then I have to break the line at the carb, get the gas flowing on the ground, and quickly re-attach it to the carb, and then everything is OK. If the gas flows with a level 1/8" above bone dry, I would think it would work with the tank is refilled to within an 1/8" of the top, but it doesn't.

Thanks again, everyone, I'm going back to seal the tank and install a new, smaller filter.

 

[dfrisk]

GERRY - Yes, the write-up you did on your hydro gasket R&R you had a close-up of the new "cork" gasket and yes, the composite cork/rubber is MUCH is a improved design.

 

[digger]

Jeremiah,
Well that should tell you right there that you have a HUGE issue with crap in your tank!
I put the same filter on my 149 8 years ago and never had an issue since.
I'll refer to my previous statement about the red looking rust ring in the bottom of the fuel bowl.

Marbles won't cut it.
buy a half pound of 1/4-20 nuts, fill the tank half full of undiluted acid and start shaking!
After about 10 minutes or when your arms feel like they are gonna fall off, dump the acid, and do it again.
I had one that took 3 tries to get it all cleaned out.
Then dump the whole mess, rinse it out with super hot water. Blow it out with the air hose, then slap that sucker in the oven at 350 degrees for no less than a hour.
Remove from the oven, take it outside and fill half full of kerosene or diesel fuel while it's still warm.
Let it set overnight, dump that out and hook it up and you'll never have another problem.
The kerosene or diesel basically seals the pours, kind like seasoning a skillet.
I've sold over 300 tanks over the years that I've done that way and never had a return or problem.

 

[hydroharry]

Hey Jeremiah - since you have the plastic tank from a QL I'd certain try that without all the additional filters. You won't have to worry about any rust and I believe the plastic tanks have some type of screen on the bottom but not exactly sure based on the type of shut-off they use. Changing to the plastic tank without the inline filter will also allow you to route the fuel line as intended (slightly upward bend) and you'll probably be able to run the tank "nearly" bone dry. You do need to lower the coil a little so you'll be able to run the plug wire routing without touching the fuel line. Only thing I'm not real sure about is whether the plastic tank fits the tank mount straps of your 149.
And by the way, I'm still wondering about the engine you have. Does it just have the old style heat shield or is it an older engine? If it's a 14hp I'm wondering if it's from a 147? Don't suspect there is any issue if you are running an older version 14hp, just wanted to know. How bout some more pics?

Under Edit - dang, just saw Charlie's suggestion about cleaning and sealing the tank, and that sure sounds good to me!!!!

 

[kide]

Ken F: If you look at all of Jeremiah's pictures, you'll note that all of the inline fuel filter is below the tank bottom and the slight upward bend tops out at about the top edge of the filter - if there were no restrictions in his system, it'd drain the tank.....


Somehow this has become rocket science.... Why do I continue to comment? Because, as I pointed out a couple of years ago in the thread about balance gears, what gets posted on this forum becomes gospel truth for many, especially our younger forum members. Putting theory out there for comment as Jeremiah has done is fine, but make it clear it's theory, not proven fact...

 

[kide]

I like Charlies method - I'll pass along an idea. If you've got more than one tank to do or if you've got a really bad tank, scrounge an old geardown rotisserie motor from a gas grill. Build a frame to attache the motor to (I use 2x4 scrap) with a support for a tail shaft) .. Build a "U" frame to put the tank on (I strapped mine to the frame with a bungee cord) with the motor attached to one upright and a tailshaft from the other upright. with this all attached to the 2x4 support frame. Fill the tank with your favorite rust removal material ( I like Charlie's idea, I used roofing nails one time and nuts another).. Plug the motor in and let it tumble over night.... Continue with Charlie's recipe.. (sorry I never took pics of the lashup...)

 

[mgonitzke]

I have also used muriatic acid to remove rust from the inside of fuel tanks, and it works great. I would recommend that over sealing it...if the sealer doesn't bond perfectly and starts breaking down, you have an even bigger mess. Might as well fix it right the first time and remove the source of the problem.

I'm with Gerry, I don't know how this got turned into rocket science either. Jeremiah's tank is full of loose rust flakes that are clogging the filter up, which is very obvious in the pictures he posted this morning.

Denny-

The only thing I can see that might be bad about installing a fuel pump is that if the diaphragm ruptures, the crankcase will fill with gas.

 

[dfrisk]

GERRY - I agree. As long as ALL the gas lines, filters, etc are below the bottom of the tank, the tank will drain down as low as the top of the pipe nipple threaded into the tank outlet on the steel tanks, on the plastic tanks, they will drain down as low as the top of the rubber grommet the fuel valve pushes into, assuming the tank is level side-to-side.

And assuming the tractor is level, side-to-side and front-to-back, the gas will all drain into the carb as long as ALL lengths of the fuel line/hose run horizontal or downhill from the tank to the carb. If they run uphill there will be gas left "Behind" the highest point going back from the carb inlet towards the tank.

Mother nature doesn't allow fluids like gasoline to flow up-hill unless some other force like a pump, inertia, magnetism, etc is at work on them.

Put a CC on a hill running whatever way, and a running engine and all bets are off. Vibration can do funny things.

I think it was the old 5 quart gas tank I used on my #72 with the K241 in it, I ran the rubber fuel line UNDER the carb to get a long enough straight run to attach my in-line fuel filter that was about five inches long, the valve with the elbow running out of the tank ran towards the back of the tractor, curved down and towards the front of the tractor, under the carb and UP into the 1/4" hose barb to 1/8" NPT elbow going into the carb. It ran fine for 20+ yrs that way, sucked the tank dry countless times, as long as the tractor was leaning to the left.

In Jeremiah's situation, yes, his tank should drain completely, but his fuel filter and all fuel lines below the upward bend of the fuel line just ahead of his carb will have gas in them, plus his sediment bulb on his gas tank.

 

[hydroharry]

Ok Gerry and Dennis - I know it ain't rocket science and I ain't no rocket scientist - but it does seem to me that the "amount of flow" in Jeremiah's set up would be slower than if it was just the standard outlet and standard rubber hose line. Am I wrong in thinking that as the fuel level in the tank gets lower that the glass fuel bowel and extra large filter don't refill as quickly, and the gravity pressure necessary to move the fuel along to the carb is lessened to the point that when the fuel is near the bottom of the tank the carb may not refill fast enough to maintain the engine at full throttle??? And in Jeremiah's case he develops a vapor/vacuum/suction type lock up in that large filter??? And in Bill's case his engine starts sputtering when it looks like the tank isn't empty??
Now that is a few questions.
What I'm thinking is that when the tank is full there is more weight pressure on the fuel going thru the little outlet hole, but when the tank is near empty there isn't the same amount of pressure.

 

[jchamberlin]

Thanks again, guys, for the wisdom and insight on a critical 12" of fuel line. We'll set aside theories of siphon action and air bubbles until I put into practice the proper methods to get the tank clean.

Charlie: Thank you for the CLEAR instructions on how to get the crap out of my tank. Next time I'm in Lowe's I'll pick up a gallon of acid and follow your instructions to the letter. I think you ought to add a note to the FAQ that I followed the first time I cleaned the tank, because I don't recall the kerosene/diesel rinse, nor the simple mixing instructions. I still have the HD rubber gloves, though.

I'm also getting ready to send in an order to get the M18 back up and running, and I'll include two (2) fuel filters for the 149.

Harry: Your eyes are better trained than mine. I'll snap some pictures tomorrow of the heat shield that came installed on the tractor and the heat shield the former owner put in my hand when I picked up the tractor. I asked him why he bought the second heat shield, and he basically told me that he just kept ordering stuff until he got it right. (He was/is a big fan of Evil-Pay.) I also have something which looks like a PTO clutch, but the more I compare it to what is on the tractor, the more I think it came off another machine.

Finally, for all the theorists out there, the problem isn't that the gas won't flow, the problem is that for some reason I can't get the flow restarted after I drain the tank. No one has explained why I am forced to break the line to initiate the flow, although Ken Freeman took a stab at it. At this point we're going with too much pressure drop in a gunked-up filter for the flow to re-initiate. The problem I have with this theory is that the filter isn't really plugged up; once I break the line, shake it a few times, and re-attach it, I don't have any problem with the fuel flow.

So, I'll tell you what: in the interests of science, I'll run the tank dry intentionally, refill the tank 1/2 way, and wait until everything cools down, at least half an hour, in order to see if the problem isn't either simply my impatience, or a genuine "vapor lock" at the carburetor. I won't post anything until I have some facts to report.

Hope you all are having a wonderful day. The fields here have finally dried out enough that the farmers can get the cotton and peanuts into the barns. I don't mind going slow behind a tractor hauling a load, even if it is a JD.

Edit: I appreciate Gerry Ide's posting. I forget, or am not aware, how others regard the conversations we have on the Forum. Making the case for "rocket science," the Devil is in the Details. (I remember in Seminary Presbyterians who declared, "<u>God</u> is in the Details," and I know many engineers who feel the same. Again, fuel flow isn't an issue until you experience an problem with it.

)

 

[hydroharry]

Jeremiah - ya, get us some pics of the whole 149 so we can see what ya got there, along with the other heat shield and PTO clutch. I still think your fuel line vapor lock up will go away once you get rid of that large Kohler filter.

 

[fcurrier]

J.C.: Got this at Ace hardware:

Supposedly as potent, safer, and a bit cheaper than muriatic acid. Clear, out of the jug, what's in the bottle came back out of the tank. Haven't seen mention of the baffle in these tanks - a lot of your rust could be coming from where marbles, etc. can't reach.

 

[jzimmerman]

Paul Funk nailed my problem.

Couple passes on the points with a bit of 400 paper and she is running fine.

Thanks, I forget how many times you guys have set me straight, but its a lot and always appreciated.

Zimm

 

[wshytle]

Like I said, good fuel, factory set-up, and the problems will just sail away. When we toy with other methods of filtration we often find ourselves in trouble. To hell with this upward arc crap in the fuel line. Where did it come from to begin with? The fuel I get from my local sources seems clean enough to deal with anything I have to throw at it. These Kohlers will suck most problems right though the "system". If not, we might have to remove the bowl for a cleaning.

What's wrong with the way IH designed the fuel delivery? I find it very satisfactory in all applications.