kphill
Well-known member
Dennis, I remove the points because I use a point file to clean the points. I guess I am a old fart after all..
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Archive through June 22, 2010
- Thread starter ljones
- Start date
Help Support IH Cub Cadet Forum:
mgwin
Well-known member
Kentucky,
You have figured out why the coil got hot, but most of us were trying to figure out the first problem; why it wouldn't crank.
You have figured out why the coil got hot, but most of us were trying to figure out the first problem; why it wouldn't crank.
Marty - No , he's first problem was no spark after setting timing (June 22, 2010 - 09:33 am) then the coil getting hot in the next post (June 22, 2010 - 11:32 am).
Right there should have told him something ...
Right there should have told him something ...
kide
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2006
- Messages
- 3,779
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- Gerry Ide
No spark, coil getting hot - either the points are grounded or the wire between the points and coil is shorted.. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...
For cleaning points, I prefer a relay contact burnishing tool, which is a flat strip about 3/16 " wide and about .060 thick, with a rough, but not cutting surface. I can't see removing metal from new points...
For cleaning points, I prefer a relay contact burnishing tool, which is a flat strip about 3/16 " wide and about .060 thick, with a rough, but not cutting surface. I can't see removing metal from new points...
Gave the points a good cleaning the conecter that conects the points to the wier was hanging on by 2 or 3 wires redid that and I have spark!! Not shure why the coil was hot it happened when I turned the switch on while it was being charged to start it but that was the only time it happened. Will the 23x8.5x12 carlisel truepowers fit on my cub fine with clerence for some tire chains?
We just had a guy sign up and his Personal Quote is, If it ain't broke it ain't mine.
My Cub Cadet 108's gear shifter went out and only moved in reverse. we had an easy time dropping the transmission but cant get the holes on the frame and transmission to line up. we finally got the four back ones on and just decided to see if the new shifter worked (didnt bolt the two more towards the front of the transmission), but when it felt to be in neutral, it went in reverse? and if we tried to put it in other gears the engine wouldnt even turn over, just wanted to move in reverse while it felt to be in neutral. Any ideas what that is caused by or why its doing that and also if there is an easy way to put the transmission back together so the holes will line up easier than they are now (any tricks?). Thank you very much!
glippert
Well-known member
Gerry - Here's the burnishing tool I've had since I repaired 2-way radios back in 1976. The knob at the end opens up a storage area in the tube where spare burnishing strips/blades are stored. I only have two spares left in it, so at my current rate I'll need to find some new strips in about 30-35 years!
They last a long time if (as you said) you don't try to take the metal off the contact points.
glippert
Well-known member
Digger - (If it ain't broke it ain't mine). His last name ain't Lippert, is it?
hydroharry
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 4,468
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- Harry Bursell
Lucas Lucas Lucas - glad you found the no-spark problem. Now, several guys on here responded in an effort to help you. It would be right kind of ya to at least thank which ONE of the guys really helped you figure out the problem. I'm certain that person would really appreciate it. Next you might also acknowledge the other guys that tried to help you with other possible solutions. What I'm suggesting here is also known as "common courtesy". If you don't show it, then the next time you post something and end it with "help", you may not get ANY responses. (And I see no one has yet responded to your question on tires).
KenTUCK - I apologize for my posting about a week or so ago, when I complained about you dumping Lucas' needs on others. I realize now at least some of my comments were out of place and I should have realized I haven't been BACK on here long enough to really question you. For that I will pay my penance.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (unless they're parked on the wrong side of a Kentucky hill)
KenTUCK - I apologize for my posting about a week or so ago, when I complained about you dumping Lucas' needs on others. I realize now at least some of my comments were out of place and I should have realized I haven't been BACK on here long enough to really question you. For that I will pay my penance.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (unless they're parked on the wrong side of a Kentucky hill)
Gerry, I'm not against learning, mabey I've just never thought it through right. How does the spark happen when the points open. When that happens basically the switch is off. I thought when the points close the condesor charges and releases it's charge, I thought the condensor gave the points time to fully close and provide full voltage, the coil saturates and sends a high voltage out to the spark plug. I been working a lot, I mean a lot. Mabey I am thinking about this wrong. I can be hard headed, but I'm not trying to be dum here if you can learn me sumthin, I'm listening.
Lucas - How long did you have the key on ? and were you cranking or just letting the key be on ?
Dave - I'll give ya a tid bit of info from my memory.
When the points are closed that makes a dead short since we are working with DC current. (DC doesn't work in a normal transformer, a spark gap transformer is needed) When the points opens it releases the short and the stored voltage in the condensor is released and jumps the point gap.
HH - Stick around , ya might learn sumthang ...
(EDIT) Dave , that's why I mention a lot of times about checking the condensor , it has to be good. If it's weak or dead it can't hold enough charged voltage to jump the point gap. I've used Mylar capacitors before in a pinch but they wont hold up to the heat of the engine.
Dave - I'll give ya a tid bit of info from my memory.
When the points are closed that makes a dead short since we are working with DC current. (DC doesn't work in a normal transformer, a spark gap transformer is needed) When the points opens it releases the short and the stored voltage in the condensor is released and jumps the point gap.
HH - Stick around , ya might learn sumthang ...
(EDIT) Dave , that's why I mention a lot of times about checking the condensor , it has to be good. If it's weak or dead it can't hold enough charged voltage to jump the point gap. I've used Mylar capacitors before in a pinch but they wont hold up to the heat of the engine.
Dave R
I wont to hurry and get my thoughts in so someone can tell me I am wrong too.
I thought that when the points are closed the coil is building the charge then when they open it dumps the charge in the way of a spark at the plug.
While I'm on here, with Harry's prelude, I would like to say THANKS to all!!!!
I have learned so so much since becoming a member. I don't know any of you personally but I can tell we have some good people on this sight! Always willing to help! I was working on the 71 yesterday and realized how difficult this would be if I didn't have help from all of you.
THANKS!!!
Now,wipe the tears from your eyes and go work on your cub!!
I wont to hurry and get my thoughts in so someone can tell me I am wrong too.
I thought that when the points are closed the coil is building the charge then when they open it dumps the charge in the way of a spark at the plug.
While I'm on here, with Harry's prelude, I would like to say THANKS to all!!!!
I have learned so so much since becoming a member. I don't know any of you personally but I can tell we have some good people on this sight! Always willing to help! I was working on the 71 yesterday and realized how difficult this would be if I didn't have help from all of you.
THANKS!!!
Now,wipe the tears from your eyes and go work on your cub!!
Bob - You're right and also kinda wrong.
The stored voltage is dumped but the coil doesn't store it , it can't since it's a transformer. The storage is the duty of the condensor (capacitor). The coil builds up the voltage but then is in a dead short until the points open and break the circuit (short) , when the short is broke and voltage is allowed to flow is when the stored voltage "flows" to the points but will only jump the gap if the condensor is good enough to have stored the high voltage. It takes the high voltage created by the coil to be able to jump the gap. That is why the points are only allowed to be set to a maximum opening. IF a higher voltage was used (coil output higher) then you could use a wider point gap.
Ever notice when they went to electronic distributors the plug gap went to 0.60".
(EDIT) <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>
The coil builds up the voltage but then is in a dead short until the points open and break the circuit (short)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
This is why I asked Lucas if he was cranking the engine or just left the key on , causing his coil to get hot. If the key was on and the points closed he had a dead short in the coil.
The stored voltage is dumped but the coil doesn't store it , it can't since it's a transformer. The storage is the duty of the condensor (capacitor). The coil builds up the voltage but then is in a dead short until the points open and break the circuit (short) , when the short is broke and voltage is allowed to flow is when the stored voltage "flows" to the points but will only jump the gap if the condensor is good enough to have stored the high voltage. It takes the high voltage created by the coil to be able to jump the gap. That is why the points are only allowed to be set to a maximum opening. IF a higher voltage was used (coil output higher) then you could use a wider point gap.
Ever notice when they went to electronic distributors the plug gap went to 0.60".
(EDIT) <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>
The coil builds up the voltage but then is in a dead short until the points open and break the circuit (short)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
This is why I asked Lucas if he was cranking the engine or just left the key on , causing his coil to get hot. If the key was on and the points closed he had a dead short in the coil.
Well I cranked it then I left the key on for about 30 seconds with points closed.
Thanks to all who responded.
Old Cubs Never Die (unless they're parked on the wrong side of a Kentucky hill)
Thanks to all who responded.
Old Cubs Never Die (unless they're parked on the wrong side of a Kentucky hill)
Thanks Frank and Jeff-
Frank-
I'm still confused because the ones I remember don't go along with the order and bolt length you posted. For instance, 5, 2, & 6 all had long bolts because of the tank bracket; 7 & 8 were one of each and I figured they should be the same being on both sides of the exhaust (one was hard to remove). Number 4 had the engine lift bracket and was a long bolt rather than a stud. I still haven't assembled it but I think I'll just study the hole depth again and go with what works. I am now guessing someone has had this head off before and didn't pay attention (like me). I would like to know if there is any documentation on bolt/stud length for the Kohler engine. This is the first time I've had a problem like this though.
Thanks again ....Wayne
Frank-
I'm still confused because the ones I remember don't go along with the order and bolt length you posted. For instance, 5, 2, & 6 all had long bolts because of the tank bracket; 7 & 8 were one of each and I figured they should be the same being on both sides of the exhaust (one was hard to remove). Number 4 had the engine lift bracket and was a long bolt rather than a stud. I still haven't assembled it but I think I'll just study the hole depth again and go with what works. I am now guessing someone has had this head off before and didn't pay attention (like me). I would like to know if there is any documentation on bolt/stud length for the Kohler engine. This is the first time I've had a problem like this though.
Thanks again ....Wayne
Wayne - When I re-ringed my K301 I did what you did ... So I took a welding rod and stuck it in the hole to check the depth and matched that to the bolts. Deepest hole = longest bolt , shallowest hole = shortest bolt ... throw the rest away
Lucas - That's why the coil got hot
Very bad for the coil , and it'll burn the point's contact if left to long
Can't answer the tire chain question but I'd say they'll clear. I run different fender style with 10.5s and 12. My flat fender cub is up on blocks.
Lucas - That's why the coil got hot
Very bad for the coil , and it'll burn the point's contact if left to long
Can't answer the tire chain question but I'd say they'll clear. I run different fender style with 10.5s and 12. My flat fender cub is up on blocks.
KEVIN, GERRY - re: points files, I read some place, maybe HRM years ago that most ignition points have been "Value Engineered" to reduce costs, meaning the contact points now are not solid tungsten like they were 40 yrs ago but are now Tungsten Plasma coated only a few thousands of an inch thick. It's best to not remove any more material from them than necessary.
I haven't had a problem with the ignition points I installed in my K321 with the rebuild several years & 150 operating hours ago but the old points in the old K241 did seem to "oxidize" if left sitting for 2-3 months. It would be hard to start the first time, have to crank for 15-20 seconds. After it ran a while it would start on the second revolution. Not sure what most companies use under the Tundsten, maybe a copper alloy?
CRAIG - I'd guess the guy on the 982 is more like 5'6", maybe 5'8". He seems smaller because everything towards the back of a 982 is "Bigger", tires larger in dia, wider, seat's taller, fenders are spaced up higher by about 1-1/2 inches.
I haven't had a problem with the ignition points I installed in my K321 with the rebuild several years & 150 operating hours ago but the old points in the old K241 did seem to "oxidize" if left sitting for 2-3 months. It would be hard to start the first time, have to crank for 15-20 seconds. After it ran a while it would start on the second revolution. Not sure what most companies use under the Tundsten, maybe a copper alloy?
CRAIG - I'd guess the guy on the 982 is more like 5'6", maybe 5'8". He seems smaller because everything towards the back of a 982 is "Bigger", tires larger in dia, wider, seat's taller, fenders are spaced up higher by about 1-1/2 inches.
