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Archive through June 03, 2010
- Thread starter kweaver
- Start date
Help Support IH Cub Cadet Forum:
glippert
Well-known member
I'm with you, Matt - reading this conversation is way more entertaining than watching reruns...
glippert
Well-known member
No butter? C'mon, man - dairy farmers are counting on ya! And don't worry about the cholesterol - bouncing across the yard on your pre-1981, IH-built Cub Cadet will jar it right through your arteries without clogging them up.(See how easy it was to convert this to "on-topic"?)
glippert
Well-known member
Good luck - stay safe!
hydroharry
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 4,468
- displayname
- Harry Bursell
Jim D - thanks for the tips on the ZDDP Zinc being removed from the motor oils. I had not heard that till you mentioned it. I tried researching the MSDS sheets on line but the ones I found for 2010 actually don't list all the contents - mostly just harmful effects on humans, and such. I did find some interesting info on API ratings, and how certain oils do NOT have an API rating (and they may just have alot of ZDDP). I had believed the API rating indicated the oil met all previous ratings (i.e. currently SM and all previous ratings). Doing research on line I see that is not necessarily the case for "all" earier ratings. Apparently the Gov't mandated removal of all or most ZDDP to avoid damage to the catalytic converters. But as you noted ZDDP provides an important lubricant between the cam lobe and lifter. I did find info that Valvoline Racing oils still have ZDDP and have some statement on the bottles, and supposedly your friendly NAPA can provide you specs and order the older previous API rating oils like SH and SJ (basically all previous to the current SM rating). I'm gonna have to throw my SAE 30 Valvoline into my truck now, and find the correct stuff for the Kohler. Don't know where my nearest tractor store is but will find it (in my metro area the NAPA guys haven't been the friendliest). Thanks again for raising the issue on ZDDP.
Ooh, KenTUCK - you really were a grouch today. How can I find the BG discussion of a few years back in the archives?
Eric T - that's a good question. I had a quick look at the Service Manual and don't see any reference, and nothing under special torque requirements. In my experience I'd guess at something like 20 ft lbs. BUT that's a guess and not scientific. I know they need to be a little more than snug, but it's probably not a critical torque. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but that Kohler may with the wrong oil).
Ooh, KenTUCK - you really were a grouch today. How can I find the BG discussion of a few years back in the archives?
Eric T - that's a good question. I had a quick look at the Service Manual and don't see any reference, and nothing under special torque requirements. In my experience I'd guess at something like 20 ft lbs. BUT that's a guess and not scientific. I know they need to be a little more than snug, but it's probably not a critical torque. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but that Kohler may with the wrong oil).
mprendergast
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8
- displayname
- Matt Prendergast
After the recommendations I pulled the head and found a lot of build up. The sides have over �� of wet carbon. I�m going to clean the head and block, replace the valve bushings, have the valves reground and lap them in. The compression was leaking at 12 psi. a minute (at 35 psi working pressure) wet and was plowing past the intake valve.
Matt P. Nice work so far, What are you calling the valve bushings, where are they in the engine? These engines have an ACR automatic compression release. it will hold the exhaust valve open slightly at cranking speed to lower the compression, increase cranking speed with the old starter generator engines above the 7 horse power level. It will leak compression it's suppose to. To get an acurate copression test takes, I believe is called, a manometer. Anybody got a picture of one,
That was good heads up work if you heard air excaping past the intake, it ain't supose to leak there. What kind of engineer are you?
That was good heads up work if you heard air excaping past the intake, it ain't supose to leak there. What kind of engineer are you?
Hydro Harry - If you've got a couple days, HERE's the place to get over-loaded on engine oil info:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/
I actually ran oil analysis on the old K241 in my 72 back in about 1986. The engine was freshly rebuilt and I get a call from my Buddy to bring my 72 over to mow his back yard. He'd bought a repossessed house and the grass was over a foot tall, also had grass from the prior summer's mowing with a farm tractor & bush hog mower. After mowing about a 5-6 foot wide swath my buddy raked the clippings up and it was a bigger windrow than even the neighbor's old IH 55T baler could handle. I ran the K241 WFO for over 45 minutes straight and it started knocking just a bit, I let it idle and cool down, knocking went away, and finished mowing. I'd blown snow on that oil change that winter and the OA said I had a large amount of unburned gasoline in the oil but no unusual amounts of wear metals, nothing hurt, just needed an oil change after 15-20 hours of running, most of it in winter.
I've also run OA in my diesel pickup at least every 10,000 miles the last 200,000 miles. Too many places for fuel or anti-freeze to get into the engine oil on PSD's.
KEN - Saw your question on the page back, My anti-sieze is from Permatex, has Moly in it. Bottle says it's "Liquid Ball Bearings" but it's more like a paste. We used to buy it by the gallon can when I was working in Moline,IL for the automobile shredder rotor place. It's a messy gray stuff that you end up wearing almost permanently if you get it on your hands. I won't work on rusty old equipment without it, and everything I own fits that description.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/
I actually ran oil analysis on the old K241 in my 72 back in about 1986. The engine was freshly rebuilt and I get a call from my Buddy to bring my 72 over to mow his back yard. He'd bought a repossessed house and the grass was over a foot tall, also had grass from the prior summer's mowing with a farm tractor & bush hog mower. After mowing about a 5-6 foot wide swath my buddy raked the clippings up and it was a bigger windrow than even the neighbor's old IH 55T baler could handle. I ran the K241 WFO for over 45 minutes straight and it started knocking just a bit, I let it idle and cool down, knocking went away, and finished mowing. I'd blown snow on that oil change that winter and the OA said I had a large amount of unburned gasoline in the oil but no unusual amounts of wear metals, nothing hurt, just needed an oil change after 15-20 hours of running, most of it in winter.
I've also run OA in my diesel pickup at least every 10,000 miles the last 200,000 miles. Too many places for fuel or anti-freeze to get into the engine oil on PSD's.
KEN - Saw your question on the page back, My anti-sieze is from Permatex, has Moly in it. Bottle says it's "Liquid Ball Bearings" but it's more like a paste. We used to buy it by the gallon can when I was working in Moline,IL for the automobile shredder rotor place. It's a messy gray stuff that you end up wearing almost permanently if you get it on your hands. I won't work on rusty old equipment without it, and everything I own fits that description.
kide
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2006
- Messages
- 3,779
- displayname
- Gerry Ide
Dennis:
I've had the same experience as Harry trying to find an off the shelf high ZDDP engine oil (Cushmans and Yamaha along with Kohlers have flat tappet cams..). The problem I've found is that there's a lot of information, but no direct statements from the manufacturers. I'd been using Shell Rotella T and now cannot find any document stating PPM of ZDDP, just that it's lower than it was....lot's of enthusiast sites with info but like Harry sez, the current MSDS sheets don't have it.
I've had the same experience as Harry trying to find an off the shelf high ZDDP engine oil (Cushmans and Yamaha along with Kohlers have flat tappet cams..). The problem I've found is that there's a lot of information, but no direct statements from the manufacturers. I'd been using Shell Rotella T and now cannot find any document stating PPM of ZDDP, just that it's lower than it was....lot's of enthusiast sites with info but like Harry sez, the current MSDS sheets don't have it.
Larry W., WELCOME!
GERRY - I've been involved with MSDS sheets from suppliers for years. I absolutely LAUGH when I read one for a BIG gray iron casting. Yes, don't grind it without respiratory protection, don't drop it on your foot, don't touch it when it's hot.
I actually called my local Shell oil distributor a year ago and asked about the ZDDP situation in Rotella T. He didn't get into specifics, but said that there's still some in it and with the really LOW pressures between cam lobes and lifters in engines like Kohler's or my old Farmall's there's no chance of wiping off a cam lobe.
From what I read years ago in HRM the worst problem is old OHV engines with race cams set up to race with high lift cams running at high RPM, valve spring pressures in the 200-300+ pound range with the valves closed. Can't remember if the Kohler manual specifies a valve spring pressure but I installed the spings in my K321 with my FINGERS with some help from SON with the keepers. I think compressed pressure on my FARMALL's is 145-150# compressed.
AND to keep this somewhat On Topic, here's a discussion of the SAME topic over on Binder Planet, another dedicated IH forum. Sounds like it's still O-K to use 30W IH #1 Low Ash oil as recommended in our operator's manuals. I know Dad switched ALL his Kohlers to it years ago because Hank Will recommended it in one of his books and His Kohlers loved it, meaning oil consumption stopped, performance improved, etc.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80079&highlight=oil+additives&page=4
I actually called my local Shell oil distributor a year ago and asked about the ZDDP situation in Rotella T. He didn't get into specifics, but said that there's still some in it and with the really LOW pressures between cam lobes and lifters in engines like Kohler's or my old Farmall's there's no chance of wiping off a cam lobe.
From what I read years ago in HRM the worst problem is old OHV engines with race cams set up to race with high lift cams running at high RPM, valve spring pressures in the 200-300+ pound range with the valves closed. Can't remember if the Kohler manual specifies a valve spring pressure but I installed the spings in my K321 with my FINGERS with some help from SON with the keepers. I think compressed pressure on my FARMALL's is 145-150# compressed.
AND to keep this somewhat On Topic, here's a discussion of the SAME topic over on Binder Planet, another dedicated IH forum. Sounds like it's still O-K to use 30W IH #1 Low Ash oil as recommended in our operator's manuals. I know Dad switched ALL his Kohlers to it years ago because Hank Will recommended it in one of his books and His Kohlers loved it, meaning oil consumption stopped, performance improved, etc.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80079&highlight=oil+additives&page=4
I have to many irons in the fire now to really investigate the oil issue. Very interested but no time. Would one or all of you, tell me the correct oil to use when I start my K161/K181 for the first time and to use in all my other baby's.
Those pictures from MattP bring up another issue. Which brand of gas additive do you like the best? I mean have you seen actual results of a sparkling piston and valves? I have always used (for my small engines) high octane (92 or better) gas and I by it in small quantities so it is used up quickly. I have used many different fuel additives in the past and have decided they are a waste of money. About six months ago I tried Sea Foam fuel additive (persistant neighbor) and for once I thought it actualy did something. Not sure what but my truck seemed to idle smoother. Fast foreword, I bought a MTD to repair and sell to support my addiction (CC's). It had not been started in two years. I performed surgery and it ran but was rough. I put a half gallon of gas heavily laced with SF and just let it run. By the end of the fuel it was purring like a kitten. I know the rings could have been reseating in a rusty cylinder but I choose to believe it was the SF. I used the SF in a full tank and mowed several times and by the time I sold the mower I was sold on SF. Now, I bought the 71 & 125. The 125 ran but rough so I tried the same process with the SF. It is Running better. The 71 needed rebuilding and the piston and valves were filthy. My test is to run SF through the 125 for awhile then pull the head to see if it is sparkly clean (yeah right).
Any comments or personal experience with any brands? Are you a hater (of gas additives)? What about my high octane ritual, crazy or correct?
bp
Those pictures from MattP bring up another issue. Which brand of gas additive do you like the best? I mean have you seen actual results of a sparkling piston and valves? I have always used (for my small engines) high octane (92 or better) gas and I by it in small quantities so it is used up quickly. I have used many different fuel additives in the past and have decided they are a waste of money. About six months ago I tried Sea Foam fuel additive (persistant neighbor) and for once I thought it actualy did something. Not sure what but my truck seemed to idle smoother. Fast foreword, I bought a MTD to repair and sell to support my addiction (CC's). It had not been started in two years. I performed surgery and it ran but was rough. I put a half gallon of gas heavily laced with SF and just let it run. By the end of the fuel it was purring like a kitten. I know the rings could have been reseating in a rusty cylinder but I choose to believe it was the SF. I used the SF in a full tank and mowed several times and by the time I sold the mower I was sold on SF. Now, I bought the 71 & 125. The 125 ran but rough so I tried the same process with the SF. It is Running better. The 71 needed rebuilding and the piston and valves were filthy. My test is to run SF through the 125 for awhile then pull the head to see if it is sparkly clean (yeah right).
Any comments or personal experience with any brands? Are you a hater (of gas additives)? What about my high octane ritual, crazy or correct?
bp
mgonitzke
Well-known member
You're wasting money with 91 octane fuel. The compression ratio of these old Kohlers is 8:1 or so, depending on engine and head. It will not detonate on 87 octane at that low of a compression ratio.
