Archive through January 31, 2012

[hydroharry]

Jeff and Wes - I'll attempt the pics again on this thread. The 1st unit has a rough hood and seat, and the hour meter is a little fuzzy. The 2nd unit has a decent hood and the hour meter is legible. And the 3rd pic shows the tag of one but its the same version in the other unit.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (especially 169's)

 

[bjamison]

Hope I'm doing this right - it's been years since I posted.

Cub Cadet 1650 - What do you know about 'em?

I've got a chance to buy a Cub Cadet 1650. It doesn't run - but I am told it will. Problem with the tractor is the iso mounts went bad and the previous owner tried to fit some kind of poly isolators and they didn't fit, so he gave up. I can't vouch for the story.

The tractor is complete, hood is in pieces, but appears all is there. It has a 48 or 50ish inch deck and there is a spare shell that is in much better condition for $100. The price of the tractor is $300.

Looking at the rear of the tractor, it appears to have disc brakes, but they look badly rusted. I think this tractor has been setting in the weather for a long time. It has no sleeve hitch - are these available (used) and if so, what's involved in installing one.

What can you tell me about these tractors, the price, iso mount replacement and other things I can expect to deal with if I buy the tractor and put it back in service. What can you tell me about the engine, hp, hydraulics, etc.

How well did these tractors mow - quality of cut?

I come from a Wheelhorse background, but would like to give a Cub a try and I kind of like this one.

Thanks in advance,
Bill

 

[lhinds]

A friend wanted to buy my 169 and i just couldn't price it. It is the best cub i own. I need to paint it.

 

[dfrisk]

BILL J. Welcome to the best garden tractor site on the web.

A "Quiet-Line" CC like that 1650 wouldn't be something I'd want because of the iso-mounts for the engine and some other changes IH made, but for the money You better have that thing in your garage by now.

A 1650 should have an IH 50A deck, pretty much the same as the 50C I have on my 982. If the spindle bearings are in decent shape they do a very good job of mowing. Takes a little work to get them set correctly, and you have to keep the blades sharp, but they mow as nice as a Simplicity IMO.

Too bad people let these things sit outside, it's REALLY hard on them. I let my car sit outside but all my tractors are inside! The 1650 has hyd lift, may even have a set of front remote outlets for things like angling a blade. The IH 3-point hitch and sleeve hitch adapter are readily available for using rear mounted attachments, and it pins on easily and can stay in place.

The hydro trans is totally bullet-proof, they run for decades with just an occasional oil/filter change. The engine is a 16 HP K341 Kohler, even if it doesn't run it's worth more than the seller is asking for the whole tractor. Hense, the model # "16"50.

I've never been around a WH, but except for one or two people I know on other forums who are totally misguided, once you get a CC you'll probably sell your WH's.

There's instructions including part numbers for repairing the iso-mounts properly in the FAQ's. Once you get the engine running you may find the hydro trunnion in need of repair, it's easy on a 1650 but does require welding, also I bet the hydro cork gasket will leak, they ALL do, and repairing the trunnion & gasket is a good time to change the Hy-Tran oil & filter for the tractor.

 

[dtanner]

Dennis Frisk

A few years back I did a 30 over re-bore on my 149 and find it has lots of power for me. I would not think a 16 hp would come on as that much of a difference that I would notice . I sold the Bolens with a 13 fin K in it . I should have pulled it and stuck a 14 in there before I sold it.

 

[thoffman]

Bill "J",
In MHO Dennis is 100% right on. <font size="-2">(Even though I still like gear drives best!)</font>

 

[dfrisk]

TOM - I'm partial to GD's too. I only have one hydro now, the 982, plus the 70 & 72, both old Farmall's are 5-speeds, plus my pickup.... and my little Volvo S40 is a manual 6-spd.

DON - Wyatt stored his 169 here for a year or so. They are a BEAST. He'd idle that K341 down to a slow idle and shove the hydro lever forward and it'd pop the frt wheels off the ground six inches and never kick the governor in or loose RPM. That extra 1/4" of bore only adds about 3 cubic inches over a K321 14 HP but it adds a LOT of low RPM torque.

 

[snicklas]

A question to the 169 owners....

I would like a 169 also.... one thing I am curious about is the vibration with the 16 hp engine.

Dad has 2 149's and I have a 1450.... basically the same tractor, I know the differences, starter, exhaust and the ISO mounts. Using the 149's after about 30-40 minutes of using it, your feet and legs start to tingle from the vibration from the engine being transmitted into the frame and foot rests. On my 1450, having the ISO mounts, you do not get the tingling. What is your experience with the 169?

I like both tractors, and the fact the 1450 is a bit quieter is nice, but I still prefer the 149 of the two. I still find myself reaching down with my left hand to grab the hydro lever on my 1450... maybe I could swap out the dash, tin and control from a 1x9 to my 1450....... The ISO mounts and cradle can be a pain, but we have done the upgrade to the cradle and it seems to help.... but I have considered the solid mounts and eliminate the ISO mounts, but I am sure I would get the same vibration/tingling as the 149.

 

[jbaker]

I havent looked at CC Specialties website in a while, but its been expanding everyone should take a look at our sponsers websites....

Thanks to all for sponsering this forum....

 

[sblunier]

My 169 ate hood hinges and headlights for breakfast...they vibrate....

BUT, they have POWER!!!

Don, I promise that the extra cubes in that 16hp will hake a monkey out of any .030 over 14hp....tons of torque...they will out lug a Mag 18 and stay with everything but a 982 on a hard pull.

Very fun to plow with!!!!

 

[dfrisk]

STEVE's correct, the K341's/169's vibrate. A L-O-T!

I had Dave Kirk balance the K321 in my #72 and it runs about as smooth as the tired old K241 it replaced. I would think if you balanced a K341 you could tame the vibration to a tolerable level. I've mowed many times with my #72 with the K321, takes about 4-5 hours and never had numb fingers or feet. Got COLD fingers & feet aerating the lawn this fall with it but that's a different problem.

 

[hydroharry]

Dennis, Steve, et al - my 169 doesn't seem to vibrate that much. It still has the balance gears in it (hehehehe).

Actually, that is the truth. I expected it to shake the tractor awhole lot but at full throttle it's fairly smooth for being a 16hp single cylinder. I did have the crank turned when I overhauled the engine, and went back and forth on re-installing the balance gears, but in the end I put them back where they belong. If I recall correctly Dave Kirk mentioned that Kohler actually used 3 different versions of the balance gears, and I'm thinking mine just work the way they should, or at least better than most.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but they do take rests)

 

[sblunier]

Mine was balanced!

 

[kphill]

When I first got my 169, It vibrated alot at WOT..When I rebuilt it, I took out the balance gears. The bearings were still good as the P.O. (an engine rebuilder by trade) Had rebuilt it a few years before...It smoothed it up a lot..Now at WOT the engine has some vibration, But only about 30-40% of what it had before..I do not think these engines were really balanced in any way, So it is probably a luck of the draw on how well balanced they are after assembly..

 

[dfrisk]

HARRY - I think the balance gears were the victim of cost reduction more so than different balance weights. Grinding a crank throw .010" U/S doesn't effect balance as much as a .010" O/S piston does.

I'd have to check my shoebox full of balance gears and compare them but I think my collection are all the same. They just seem very fragile & frail for something spinning 3600+ RPM inside an engine by design "Out of balance", the way people can remove them by cracking/breaking the last one while it's still on the stub shaft.

 

[bjamison]

1650 Cub Cadet

OK - Thanks for everyone's help. Another queston. Aside from the ISO mounts, what are other aspects that make this tractor maybe less desirable than other Cub Cadets? I think I can easily replace the ISO mounts, but I'm getting a bit of a vibe the Quite Line CC's may have not be the most desired of the IH designs.

I am also interested in all areas of this machine that are preceived as not as desireable and why. I figure if I'm going to buy one, I'd like to know every aspect of the design - good or not so good.

Thanks again!
Bill

 

[kphill]

The reason I removed the balance gears from my 169 is because the balance gear set-up is a really poor design..As Dennis says the gears are very frail and spinning at those speeds on those very small needle bearings, It is not a good design..I always figured if those balance gears ever got tired of being in the dark and decided to install a bay window to see what the rest of the world looked like, It would be almost impossible today to find a block that matched what I got..So I better take care of what I got..

 

[hydroharry]

Kevin - yes I know the story, and I certainly hope my K341A 13 fin never sees the window light.

Dennis - I really hadn't thought about the balance effect of an U/S crank and O/S piston. My bore was still quite good at the time of the overhaul. Had it honed and used a .003 O/S Kohler piston (not sure if you can still get them from Kohler, or anywhere else). So I have an .010 U/S crank, .010 O/S rod, and a .003 O/S piston, all Kohler parts, At half up to full throttle I'm surprised it seems fairly smooth. At slow to mid idle it does shake some, but I think it's fairly comparable to a 12 or 14hp.

Bill J - the 1650 was the "Top Of The Line" of the Quiet Line series at the time IH produced it (roughly 1975-80). All CCs have their pros and cons. The Iso-mounts on the Quiet Line units became a well know issue but I believe the cradle update seems to really resolve it. There are other minor issues but overall for a Garden Tractor it really is one of the best, actually performs very well, and I believe it's highly prized by most CC collectors. The Quiet Line tractors were the 1st to have enclosure side panels, have an electric PTO, and the Kohler AQS version engines with integrated starters. Some people won't like any of these items. They will prefer the open engine bay believing the engine can cool better, they will prefer the mechanical PTO that for the most part is easily repaired if it fails, and they like the big belt drive starter/generator on the older units since it rotates faster and may start the engine quicker. These are likely the pros/cons you'll hear. My 1st unit was a 1450 and if I hadn't moved to the west coast I'd still have that unit. It became a part of me over the 15 years I had it. When you know your tractor inside and out it really does become part of you. I do love my 169 because of it's style, rarity and that bid exposed 16hp engine. It's my keeper from a by-gone era, and a show unit. My advice - buy that 1650, put some work in it, and I really think you'll love your decision.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and their moving/shaking does vary)

 

[thoffman]

Bill "J",
You will get all kinds-o-opinions about what Cub Cadet is the best. God know we've been down that road many times here. I like the narrow frame gear diver, Harry is a 169 guy, and Kraig <font size="-2">(For some crazy reason)</font> likes the "Zig-Zags".

They are <u>ALL</u> GREAT machines that the new big box garden tractors won't be able to touch in my or your lifetime.

Bring that 1650 home wrench on it for awhile and you will love it like you would love you own child!!!

JMHO

 

[dfrisk]

BILL J. - There are advantages to the Quiet Line tractors. They were the first to have the electric PTO clutch which are really durable. Only down side to them is they are either OFF or ON, no feathering them on like the manual PTO's but very seldom do you hear someone asking about them here.

The Q/L's also have a bendix style starter like a car engine. Much simpler electrical system because of that. And the generator is part of the flywheel, no added moving parts like the starter/generator used on the older tractors. The starter/generator pulley used on the older tractors is also the driver for the PTO clutch and since ALL the HP of the engine frequently goes thru that pulley the pulley frequently comes loose from the hub and the keyway in the crankshaft frequently gets wallowed out which is repaired by milling another keyway in the crank by a machine shop. None of that happens on a Q/L.

The shrouding around the top front of the engine vibrates and cracks but it's repairable.

You also have the heavy cast iron rearend similar to what was used in the CUB Farmall tractors. I can't say as I've EVER heard of anyone tearing up or wearing out a hydro rearend unless something unusual happened. There's been a few guys twist axles off right at the differential carrier inside the rearend but there's a cure for that too. And you have to be really doing something WAY beyond what the tractor is designed for to do that.

And because a Q/L is a Wide Frame CC the center frame cover between the steering console & seat/fender pan is removable for service and adjustments with four small screws. Not like they need a lot of service or adjustment but it's handy when you do.

If the 1650 you're looking at has disc brakes on each rear wheel they are expensive to replace all four brake pads, but there's solutions to that too in the FAQs, the plus side is you don't use brakes on a hydro much so the pads in that 35-40 yr old tractor are probably the factory installed pads. The replacements will last at least that long.

The steering gearbox, made by TRW/ROSS is a little light duty for what these tractors do. The diecast gearbox casting wears, I even BROKE one on the CC 70 I have about 45 yrs ago! The sponsors above, (colorful boxes) sell all the parts you need to rebuild them, typically two new sets of ball bearings and the plastic retainers, plus the two stamped steel races. I've never replaced the tapered pin that runs in the slot in the steering worm in any of my CC's. But I think if IH had used a bigger heavier-duty gearbox they would hold up much better. But the one IH used is the same as every other L&G tractor company did. I guess we just use these CC's harder!

So really the iso-mounts are the big thing. But once fixed properly they last a long long time too.

Like I said.... Is it sitting in your garage yet? ;-)

KEVIN H. - Yep, slim to NO chance of my balance (gernade) gears putting a window in any of my engines either. Kohler built MILLIONS of engines without them. I think they should have been an "option".