Archive through February 02, 2012

[dkirk]

Harry,

I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the time you can hear a rattling sound prior to the gears totally failing. If your engine is a relatively fresh rebuild and no unusual noises, you are probably safe, especially with the small amount of running time it gets in a year.

 

[bjamison]

OK - I picked-up the 1650 today. There was no relief valve lever on the tractor to disengage the hydro, so it had the auto relief valve and rolled fairly easily onto my trailer. I was concerned that given the tractor had seen some time in the weather and the disc brakes were rusty, rolling might be a problem.

The guy I bought it from assured me the tractor ran and all it needs are new ISO mounts - we'll see.

Where do I get the ISO mounts? Is this something I purchase from the forum sponsors or are they a CC dealer item and what can I expect to pay?

Hopefully I'll be pulling the engine in a few weeks and doing a cradle mod too - which I have read about.

The serial numer indicates the tractor was made in late 1976.

Lastly, the tag on the mower deck said 440 Rotary Mower. This deck looks like a 48ish inch deck. I thought the deck for these tractors was a 50C or maybe a 50A. Would this deck not be the original?

Lots of questions coming.

Thanks for everyones input/advice.
Bill

 

[ljones]

Bill, congrats on the getting the 1650 it is on my list to eventually get. The ISO mounts will cost you in the neighborhood of $100 from cub, some places sell solid mounts for alot cheaper.

 

[hydroharry]

Bill J - congrats on getting the 1650. Hopefully the engine will run good. Make sure you click on the FAQ above, and then Charlie's FAQ and go to number 23 for details on making the cradle and advice on what to do for replacement ISO-mounts. You are at a disadvantage since the PO installed them incorrectly but with a little support I believe you'll be able to figure out the correct installing method. Once you read Charlie's FAQ No. 23 you'll see that used original ISO-mounts (generally the top ones) can be used on the bottom. The new mounts you get from CCC are alot stiffer than the original versions so you might want to check with one of the sponsors that sells used parts (like Scott Madson at Madson’s Service) and see if you could get some used original ISO-mounts. You also need to make sure you have the correct length bolts that bolt the ISO-bars to the engine oil pan. Since the PO didn't do things correctly you need to re-verify you have correct bolts. I would start by making sure the bolt hole threads in the oil pan are good and measure how deep they go, then you need to account for the thickness of the ISO-bar itself, and a flat washer and a lock washer for the rear bolts. Once you determine this make sure the bolt is slightly shorter (probably by the thickness of the flat washer) since you’ll have to torque the bolt and you don’t want to crack the aluminum oil pan. The front bolts should be slightly shorter than the rear bolts since you won’t be able to use a flat washer on the front do to the design of the axle channel, but make sure you use a lock washer on the front bolts. Also, I hope you have a good SKY-hook to hang that K341AQS 16hp engine on. It's a bit of a bear to lift and set in place. Once you have the engine in the tractor you'll have to push up on the ISO-bar itself to get it flat against the oil pan and wiggle the engine around a bit to get the bolt holes in aligment before you can get one of the rear mounting bolts started. You have to do the rear bolts first but leave them just a little loose so you can adjust (wiggle) the engine alignment for the front bolts. The front bolts are more of a real bear. You have to have the frame of the tractor jacked up in the front, enough so you can push one tire down and have it "almost" touch the floor (it must be a hard surface floor - not dirt). You have to push down on the front axle so you can get at the front bolt hole which is in the axle channel. Start the bolt by hand/fingers to insure you get the threads started correctly - and you'll have to have the engine in perfect alignment so you can get the threads started. Most likely you'll have to hold the bolt with 2 fingers since there is very little room between the axle and channel. I'd also recommend something to block the axle so it doesn't rotate and pinch your fingers as you try to start the bolt. It will almost certainly take you a few trys (maybe many tries) to get the bolt threads started. If your engine alignment is slightly off the bolt threads will not start - and you have to make sure the threads start correctly - so again I'll say the engine has to be aligned perfect. Once you get the first front bolt in leave it "almost snug" and then go to the bolt on the other side. You'll probably have to bump the engine slightly to get the final hole in alignment to get the bolt threads started. To do the final tightening of the front bolts you'll probably have to use a 1/4 drive rachett - since there just isn't enough space between the axle and the axle channel for a 3/8 rachett. You might be fortunate enough to have an offset box wrench that may fit. I've always had to use a couple different wrenchs because of the way the slot in the frame is designed, and then do the finish tightening with a rachett. You can't get a rachett with socket into the space until the bolt is screwed in most of the way. Good luck with all this. Since this is your 1st time it will likely take you 1-2 hours just because of the alignment and the limited space for the bolts. (Someone will probably say they did their in 15 minutes - but that would be pure luck).

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die.

 

[hydroharry]

Bill J - read this after the post below. While you have the engine out I would highly recommend you make sure your front axle fits fairly snug in the axle channel, and the pin is not worn and allowing the axle to cock. If not, it's much much easier to fix it with the engine removed. I'm sure there is an FAQ and fixing the front axle channel. Also, it would probably be easier to install the cradle ISO-bars with the front axle removed. You can certainly get at the front engine mount bolts much easier with the axle removed.

Good luck with this. You will love your 1650.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[lhinds]

This was caused by balance gears. The 13 fin engine had 368 hours on it. Was in my 169.

 

[dfrisk]

BILL J. The deck on your new 1650 is a 44 inch deck, a 44A. It looks almost exactly like the 50A but as the model # would suggest, 6 inches narrower. Most of the parts interchange except the deck skin, the 1/4" thk plate the spindles bolt to, and the blades & spindle drive belt. They're a really good deck, the best mowing deck IH built IMO, and the 44's are better than the 50's, they tend not to warp and deform as much as the 50's.

The top plate of the discharge chute extends so far out it makes the deck seem wider than it really is. I had a 44" deck on my old 129 and cut the chute back so it fit in my pickup box without removing the deck. It also fit in some tight places around trees in my yard better too.

Once you get that K341 running I'm sure you'll really like that new Cub Cadet.

 

[mschutz]

Bill J, Once you get that 1650 running you'll be hooked. Then yellow fever will set in. Not to fear, there is a cure. Find another Cub Cadet! These old tractors are easy to work on.

 

[bborchers]

Luther, a little JB Weld will fixer right up.

 

[aaytay]

Great discussion on the 169 production dates/balance gears!

I've been wanting to throw in some thoughts, but have been REALLY busy with work. Thank goodness for weekends!

As most of you know, I've been collecting serial/engine-data of the 169/1650 models from willing forum members. The purpose of the data-base is to see if there was a trend behind which tractors were assembled with 12 fin or 13 fin tractors. I'd heard it said (many times) on this forum that only 13-fin engines are considered original engines to the 169 models, but after buying a 169 with what looked like an original engine that only had 12 fins, I began to suspect the 13-fin theory was a myth.

I've removed the owners-names from my database and posted a screen shot below.

If you look at the limited data I have thus far, you can see that there is no definate "trend" to which 169's came with a 12-fin engine and which came with a 13-fin engine. Obviously more data will get us closer to a perfect answer, so get out to your garages and storage sheds and collect more info if you have one of these tractors!

As you can see, the production dates of these tractors as listed on the database does not line up to the info Paul relayed to us about Harold's comments. I honestly don't know what to make of that. After looking at the production dates collected thus far, I have a hard time believing 169 production was somehow "crammed" into a few short months toward the end of 1974, but that is pure speculation on my part. Unless we hear something more definative from someone who was on the production-line at the time, I suspect we may never know.

While I certainly don't doubt the 13-fin's desirability among pullers to be bored out to 4" as Denny mentioned earlier, there is no question in my mind that these tractors were built with both 12 and 13 fin engines. Why that was, I don't know, but I think the comments saying "13-fin-is-the-only-original-engine-in-a-169" are without a doubt a myth after seeing the data thus far. As you can see, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to which tractors came with 12 or 13 fin engines.

What does all this mean? I don't know, but I can tell ya my 169 is a GREAT little-yellow-tractor!!

 

[thoffman]

Sometimes you find the darn thing in books at garage sales.

I paid $.25 for a book, that didn't want.

 

[lhinds]

Harry Bursell on the condenser you posted 01/30 12. I checked my condensers and one like you posted came from my 100. And a smaller one labled Kohler Co. came from my original.

I don't know that either one came as original equipement.

 

[nmercer]

Hello again, I am back with another episode of this old non running tractor, I received my parts from CCspecialties this morning in the mail and after the wind let up I went out to install them on my 1200. following advice on this forum on setting up the points properly I put fresh gas in it and tried to start it. It tries to start and will even fire and run a few moments but it dies down?...and then will usaully fire once more and rotate backwards for a couple of revs. when it is running?..it acts like the old johnny poppers only firing once in awhile. I have had this engine down and have checked the timing marks on the internals of the motor and they are dead on, the valves are seating and the adjustment of them is good. The only thing that looked out of norm to me is the intake valve seemed to me to be opening a little to early. Any thoughts or comments are welcome. Thanks Neil

 

[thoffman]

Neil "M",
How's the flow of fuel?

 

[nmercer]

Tom,
It has plenty of fuel and it is not flooding out although the fuel valve on the bottom of the tank is leaking but that has nothing to do with the problem. I physically checked by loosening the float bowl screw and got a steady flow of fuel so I know that is not the problem. I am currently taking measurements on my old reliable Montgomery Wards to see how much work it will be to put the tiller attachment on it, it always starts and runs good. And it (enormous smile here) has hydraulic power on it which will make lifting the tiller a breeze!

 

[nbartee]

I'm curious. What physically happens when you do tow a hydro that's been sitting for a while?

 

[hydroharry]

Luther - that pic of the Kohler block puts a knot in my gut. Hey thanks for checking your condensers too. Don't know that we'll ever know what was original but nice to see the Delco Remy version.

Neil - the advice on the Forum you followed, was that for static timing the engine???. I'm no wizz on the internal components, but if the timing is right, and the internals are installed correctly, then I lean in the same direction that Tom H was suggesting. Getting fuel to the float bowl is good to know - but next you need to make sure you're getting fuel thru the carb. If you have the air cleaner cover off and the choke off, you should actually be able to look straight thru the carb and see the fuel spraying into the intake as you're attempting to start it. If you don't see the fuel (and it will be a spray) then I think you've got a blockage in the carb. Another method to verify this is by disconnecting the spark plug wire from the spark plug, put the choke on full and try to start it 4 or 5 times (wait about 15-20 secs between attempts to let the starter cool down). Then pull the spark plug. If it's not all wet with fuel then you're not getting fuel thru the carb into the intake.

Art - thanks for posting your data on the 169's and 1650's. I'm very surprised to see a 13 fin 1650 listed with a 1976 build date. I thought the 13fins went away alot earlier than that. You've convinced me that a 169 could come out of production with either a 12 or 13. With regard to the info from Paul that Harold provided, about all production being stopped and only 169's were being built from mid to late 1974, is still a possibility. What we need it build month info for other xx8/xx9 tractors to see if any show up as being built in Sep/Oct/Nov. Maybe the guys on here can provide build month/year for models other than the 169s. I have this gut feeling that we aren't going to see any in these months except 169's.

Bill J - what happened to ya??? Are you working on the 1650???

Norm B - what physically happens when you tow a Hydro that's been sitting awhile - well it depends on how far you tow it. If you only move it about 3 feet, then the flat spots on the bottoms of the tires from sitting, will probably be on the top of the tires. (Sorry I had to thro in a joke here). I believe generally that if the hydro relief valves are released when you tow then you are turning all the gears in rearend. If the valves are not released then you are not only turning all the gears but also forcing the hydro fluid thru the pump. Even with the valves released I think some fluid does still flow. Hopefully someone else on here can confirm this, and maybe even elaborate.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[jchamberlin]

Neill "M": I'll back up what Harry is telling you about the carburetor. I'm working on a Model 149 that when I got it had so much fuel flowing that I couldn't keep the tank full. After replacing the clear plastic lines with rubber ones, and adding an in-line filter, the fuel's "free flow" abated, but the gas still seemed to disappear from the tank when sitting. However, the tractor would start and run until recently.

In an effort to diagnose the problem I tried starting fluid. It would fire with the ether and run a little while, but I couldn't get it to stay running on the gas.

I've now had the carburetor apart only to find problems with the float --one of the tabs was missing altogether, allowing the float to hit the bottom of the bowl, and possibly get hung up. The carb also probably had some trash in it as well (I've cleaned it). I'm waiting for a break in the weather to re-install and I'll let you know if it works.

Bottom line: As Harry points out, fuel flow TO the carb doesn't necessarily mean fuel flow THROUGH the carb.

Another possibility: If you've gotten water in the gas, and it is very cold where you live, its possible the carb is "frozen" even if the fuel flows.

I hope you get it worked out. I feel certain that once you get it running, the Cub will ride, handle, and perform better than the OT tractor you mentioned.

 

[bjamison]

Harry,

The 1650 is setting on the trailer, I've been tied-up with other fish to fry. The first thing I'm going to do is order a set of iso mounts and plan a cradle mod. In the mean time, I've been downloading manuals for reading.

Couple of questions though.

Anyone know the part number of the iso mounts I need to give to my CC dealer for ordering?

What were the differences between the "A" and "C" mowing decks? Example 44A vs 44C.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[dfrisk]

BILL - The 44C decks had a different top center pulley that was driven by the mule drive belt. The red tractors, 482/582/682/782/982 all had 5/8" wide mule drive belts The yellow/white tractors still had 1/2 inch wide belts and used the 44A deck.