Archive through December 03, 2011

[kphill]

I am in the middle of rebuilding my beat up QA36A including new bearings and paint..I disassembled the 4 bolt angle gearbox and I am doing a full rebuild there.. I am going to run gear lube and would like a pic of where the factory put the fill plug on the cover...I have one that never had it..Thanks! Kevin

 

[digger]

Kevin H.
If your gearbox cover is stamped steel, it would not had had one.
The old BB,CC,CW throwers with the cast cover plates had them for a while, so you can pretty much put it where you want, although IMHO, there's no need.

 

[kphill]

Charlie, Can gear lube be added and then the cover closed?..Is there room to add enough with the cover off?

 

[digger]

Kevin,
You don't want to stuff it full. Just enough to cover the gears good, with a little extra. So yes, there's plenty of room.
Personally since I'm up where it gets really cold, I do a 75% grease and 25% 90 weight. Covers well and doesn't get hard after a while.

 

[jfsirois]

Hi All, I was running a new to me 782 yesterday cutting some tall grass very effortlessly after about 30 minutes I began to get smoke and oil from the crankcase breather . a pretty good amount. I figured it was an overheat so I stopped cutting and made sure the airway was clear. The plugs where light grey and set wider than .025 . I set the plugs and points and changed the oil. after starting and bringing it to running temp i got more smoke .Is This the end for the series 1 ? Are the rings letting oil blow by? Where am I ?aside from moronville for taking it to the yard and not the garage after the buy
any experience would be helpful John

 

[kphill]

Maybe I will try the Grease/Gear Lube thing..Being the inner bearing is an open bearing and not a sealed bearing like the outer one I just thought gear lube would be better..I will give that a try when I put it together..

 

[mhomrighausen]

JIm C. and Dennis F. You're both correct about the debate on the torque/retorque thing. And yes... I do strongly believe the OEM guys do go a little higher on assembly first torque due to the fact that the bolts do relax shortly after the initial first torque. All the metal/gasket material will do so in varying degrees. Thus the reason for doing so.

Off to work. Everyone be safe and have a wonderful week.

 

[dfrisk]

MARLIN - I've worked for quite a few different companies buyng parts for all different types of products & equipment but unfortunately engines is not one of them. A very sharp QA person two jobs ago told me, "All metals are "Plastic", you put enough force on them they bend and move." He was talking about HUGE gray and ductile iron castings weighing tens of thousands of pounds! Right outside our offce door they had a Coordinate measuring machine large enough to set my F250 pickup on! Their QA lab had hardware to measure things to .000001 INCH. When I sent work out for machining I had to confirm the temperature of the QA lab where they would be inspected to make sure they didn't grow or shrink due to temp changes from the place they were machined.

JIM C. - I think you should be O-K with your new head gasket now.

 

[kphill]

Marlin, I work for a company that manufactures very large Diesel engines..When we install fasteners (bolts) the pre-torque is always lower than the final torque..When fasteners are first stretched when new they will not spring completely back to thier original length. That is the purpose of pre-stretch. Fasteners are like springs, in that they get thier clamping force by stretching them. If you overstretch them they can not only weaken your clamping force but they can also fail from being over stretched..You do not want your pre-stretch higher than your final stretch because you do want that bolt to relax and allow it to have the clamping force needed to hold those two parts together..

 

[kphill]

Also the reason the head bolts need re-torqued after the run/cool down cycle is not because of the fasteners, but the head gasket..The head gasket seals by being compressed when torqued. When you first start that engine up and it warms up. the metal expands causing the bolt tension to increase and the head gasket to compress farther. When the engine completely cools the tension relaxes and the torque is lower because the gasket was overcompressed. This is why you need to re-torque at this point.

 

[dfrisk]

KEVIN - The way you describe your torquing process, you want to Approach but not exceed the bolt's Yield point correct?

I checked the ASTM spec's for SAE Grd 8 bolts like Kohler used for head bolts/studs on their K-series engines. The normal dry torquing spec for 3/8"-16 SAE Grd 8 bolts is 44 foot pounds. The min. tensile strength of the bolts per ASTM A354-BD is 125 KSI, Min. yield strength is 109 KSI, so torquing the head bolts to 35 ft/pounds should not exceed the yield strength unless the torquing proceedure was not correct, lubricant used, burrs in the threads, etc.

Fastener tightening is something we all probably take for granted, having twisted off more than my fair share of bolts I know I do, if I twist a Grd 2 off I replace with a grd 5, if the grd 5 twists off I get a grd 8. And it's nice to know there's a WHOLE WORLD of stronger threaded fasteners out there that are even stronger yet.

There's a LOT of good bolt & threaded faster manufacturing companies around, but ARP has a very nice website with informative pages.
http://arp-bolts.com/pages/technical.shtml

If you look at the chart showing recipricatng weight VS RPM you'll see a BIG reason why I don't run my engines at full RPM unless I need to. The effective weight of the piston on the rod bolts increases FOUR times when the RPM is doubled.

 

[kphill]

Dennis, You are correct in the dry torquimg spec. Keep in mind that when you torque bolts the threads should be clean and OILED with motor oil. This lowers the torque spec to 35 ft lbs. as a oiled bolt turns with less friction than a dry bolt..Also you are correct about bolt grades..The rule of thumb I use in my garage is to not keep grade 2 bolts around as I do not want them to accidently end up were they don't belong...And use grade 5 in everything except were failure is not an option, Such as head bolts. steering parts, etc. and to use grade 8 for those applications...

 

[kphill]

Dennis, The yield strength is the point were the fastener starts to deform. Your torque is about 75% of that..In other words, If you yield strength is 200 foot pounds, You torque setting would be about 150 foot pounds...This is why bolts should be torqued, Not just tightened by hand..

 

[proessler]

Kevin another option for your gear box lube is FARM OYL Fluid Gear Grease. I it got at local CaseIH dealer and used in my IH Cadet 526 tiller when I replaced a gear last spring. It "Eliminates Leaky Gear Boxes" according to label. It comes in a quart squeeze tube...Good for gear boxes & angle drives, Track roller assemblies on crawler equipment, and enclosed knife & sickle drives. *DO NOT USE in Hypoid Gears* Distributed by CHS, Inc. ST. Paul, MN ... I also used Charlie's Formula in my QA42A gear box , it works 2.

 

[mhomrighausen]

Pretty cool discussion going on about torquing.

Keep it up.

 

[jbaker]

Retorqing topic in main forum?

you guys are going to get poofed if big bear isn't in a GOOD MOOD.

can anyone offer some excpeirenced pros and cons of manual lift verses hydro lift when using a snow blade

 

[dfrisk]

KEVIN - I'm slowly eliminating all the grd 2 hardware from my selection.... Especially the smaller diameters. The Cubbies all get Grd 5 or better.

Years ago when I was buying bolts for installing shear blades in scrap metal cutting shears I ALWAYS got material test reports from the supplier. The ASTM spec required 190 KSI tensile but I never saw a report come in at less than 210 KSI, and these were BIG bolts, 1 to 1-1/2 inch diameter, smaller diameter bolts should be higher. About every month or two we'd have someone call and complain about "weak/bad bolts" and I'd pull the MTR and fax it to the customer and that was the end of the discussion as he went out to discuss proper tightening proceedures with his maintenance people. Using a crane on a four foot long wrench to tighten a 1-1/2 inch diameter bolt probably exceeded the torque spec!

ARP seems to like torquing to a bolt stretch dimension but that's NOT going to happen on a Kohler head. Maybe on the rod bolts.

I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating, if you read the ARP info it's mentioned, You should never use a torque wrench to loosen bolts/nuts with the possible exception of a Bending beam style T-wrench. A click-stop torque wrench will go out of calibration very quickly doing that. And torque wrenches are only accurate in the top portion of their range, the portion depends on the style and brand. Like my 1/2" Crafsman Digitork 0-250 #/ft I only trust from about 50-60 #/Ft and up, it even states that in the owner's manual. Below that I use my Crafssman 3/8" bending beam wrench which goes up to 600-700 inch pounds, (50+ #/ft.).

Since most critical fasteners on a K-series Kohler are 3/8", rod bolts are different, 5/16" I think, I only get out the little wrench.

 

[proessler]

Jeff... Hydraulic lift & tilt are easier & faster, especially if Ur sitting on Ur IH CC without a cab or Heat Hauser with -15* wind chill & snow biting Ur face & freezing Ur fingers. Only 40 years of past history.

Also, 54" plow Blade is way to go!

 

[kphill]

Jeff, Why would we get poofed?..This is about torquing bolts on cub cadets..This is about the bettterment of cub cadets, Which is what proper torquing is about...

 

[proessler]

Denny...Torque wrenches, I have 2 Craftsman-3/8" & 1/2" beam. #2 son...Ford & MadCity Tech with Matco digital said his is Better! So we compared torquing on lug nuts one of my IH CC his Hi Tech Matco & my Craftsman... both read Same torque reading.