Welder

[dross]

I bought one of those crappy cheap 110 welders about 8 or 10 years ago. I use flux core wire, usually .30. I've went through mabey 6 roles of wire since I've owned it and I know theres better out there, this welder will weld steel. I have used it to weld cracks in cub frames, fill holes and the small projects here and there. If I'd had the money I probly would have bought a better one, honestly the only real complaint I have with this one is a 20 peercent duty cycle, weld 2 minutes out of 10.

 

[sblunier]

Silverado?????? Really????? Oh well, to each their own.....

 

[nbartee]

"Duty Cycle"? Got me on that one. What is that about?

 

[sblunier]

Duty cycle: Ratio of actual welding time to cooling time (fan on, cooling transformer) to prevent welder overheating.

120V machines have very low duty cycle ratings at their higher outputs, the compact 220V machines are somewhat better, and the full size "production" machines the best.

Probably not too big of a deal on a garage project machine, but welding 2-3 minutes out of 10 min. when working with 1/4" material can make things a little slower on bigger projects.

It has also been my experience that when you push the duty cycle rating at the higher end settings of the 120V machines arc quality and controlability suffers. This plays into the reason I suggested the 175/180 Hobart, to get you into just a little more machine than is absolutely required, to make sure you can do a better job on the occasional 1/4" and larger project (more common that you might think...I figured I'd never need much 1/4" capability when I bought my HH140....then I realized I was always running the thing close to maxed out).

IMHO, where the 110V units really shine is on light maintenance work, body work and exhaust work, where portability is more important than capacity.

Lots of different things to factor in isn't there??

 

[dross]

The thing I forgot to mention yesterday is get the longest cord you can find on one. You can't use an extension cord. I've always wondered if hard wiring 50ft. of 12-3 into the breakerbox would work but I've never done it.

 

[sblunier]

Dave,

You can use an extension, just not a 16-3 from Menards.....a good 12-3 cord will work fine to get you another 25 feet....no different than wall wiring on 120V.

 

[dfrisk]

STEVE - How long is the welding cable on your MM210? The one to the gun? The one on my MM185 is either ten or twelve feet, sometimes it borders on being too short. But then my TIG & plasma cutter have 25 ft leads and those are WAY too long IMO. I think 15 feet would be about right.

I've never tried it but the guy I buy my steel from also runs a welding shop. He says you can wind your ground cable tightly around a solid iron bar and it'll generate magnetism, and also reduce your welding current letting you weld thinner material.

Like I said before, Many ways to modify your welding process to allow you to accomplish something. Best one I ever saw was on Wyatt's trailer, he had some brackets made to mount his ramps on the back and to increase the amount of weld metal he wrote the cutting program to make DOVETAILs in them. Lots and Lots of weld! Very strong joints!

 

[dross]

Steve, could it be the distance? I have a good 12-3 50 footer. It ran my aircompressor for extended periods without getting hot. It would run the welder but not with good results.

 

[aschumacher]

Re: extension cords. In my years of tools and extension cords I have concluded that the wire gage is ok for the job, but over time the plug and socket connections can no longer(if ever) support the rated current. Suspect thats why a hard wired 12 ga ckt is more dependable than an extension cord. JMHO

 

[jchamberlin]

Electrically speaking, there is going to be power loss in ANY wire run. 50 ft from the source --fuse box-- should give you full power, any further than that and you'll start to get harmonics and such. A welder is more sensitive to the secondary characteristics of the power being provided than the simple motor that powers a compressor.

There are also differences in conductance between stranded and solid wires.

Although Allen is correct, there are capacitive charges generated by plugs and sockets as well as the bothersome "not-quite-perfect" connection.
Just my thoughts.

 

[dfrisk]

Jeremiah - Interesting post. Years ago I read something when I was wiring my shop about the fact that experts still didn't know if the "electricity", flow of electrons ran thru the centers of the copper wire cnductors or only along the outside surface. Did the experts ever figure that out? And I kinda understand "Conductance" and can understand why a solid conductor would be different than a multi-conductor wire, but could you explain that in more detail.

And BTW, I agree with your comment about motors being much less suseptable to interference, or EMF in their power and voltage drop. These new welders aren't just transformers anymore, there's LOTS of semiconductors on circuit boards in them now.

 

[aaytay]

I bought an extension cord a few years back that works great with the 'ol <font color="0000ff">210</font>...

Oh, and if you're looking to get a welder, make sure you get one of those 'red things' shown in the first pic.

 

[jchamberlin]

Dennis - The last I heard (in Networking/Communications class circa 2002) the current theory is that a SIGNAL (as opposed to power) travels on the outside of the wire: especially important for coaxial cabling layouts.

With so many of these applications (like Variable Frequency AC Drives), when you get deeply into the internals, DC current is used to control AC Frequency or visa-versa. I'm not certain how welders work, but at one time I was told that large capacitors were involved. Capacitors block current, but pass voltage; transformers, on the other hand, can induce current (by virtue of the field effect) but the polarity of the ensuing voltage reverses (if I remember correctly).

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that in practical application "power" is more than Current times Voltage (P=IE, or P=IV depending on your vintage). Power TRANSMISSION is a science unto itself.

(Did you hear about the Russians who tried to run LOW-voltage power transmission lines --the cables required a gauge that limited the distance the power could travel as well as increased the cost of the project prohibitively-- higher voltage is better for power transmission.)

As far as welding is concerned, I believe there are both AC and DC welding machines / techniques. Anything AC is sensitive to frequency, anything DC is sensitive to attenuation. The semi-conductors are in there to balance out all the relevant factors so guys like you and I don't have to think about them and overload our brain cells.

Under Edit: Art makes a good point --bigger is better!

 

[sblunier]

Good conversation....

I made a 20' extension for my MM210, 10 gauge hard wired to a breaker box.....fewer blade connections...

+1 on the fire extinguisher...or 2x of them!!!!

 

[dfrisk]

JEREMIAH - Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to study your post in more detail to fully understand it.

Since you mentioned Variable frequency inverter drives, I have a bit of experience with them. The electrical principals they work by are WAY over my meager understanding of electricity but they can do fantastic things. I actually have a Danfoss VLT 2000 out in the shop waiting for the right project to use it on, probably to convert single phase to 3-phase power to run something.

My Dynasty is inverter based, and with the DX version you have both AC & DC welding capability and with the touch of a few touch controls & turning a few knobs you can alter the wave form of the AC power you weld with the control penetration, cleaning of the weld puddle, etc. When we got it 5-6 yrs ago it was the most adjustable welder made. Miller made a Dynasty 300 but it was much more money and I didn't need that capacity. The Synchro-wave's are transformer based and are power HOGS and not near as adjustable. Plus they weigh about 3-4 times as much.

 

[nbartee]

I found a Lincoln Weld-Pak 180HD on Craigslist for $450 that seems like a good buy to me, it's 220 V. Can anyone tell me anything about this welder? Does it stack up well against the Hobart 180?

 

[kide]

"The Synchro-wave's are transformer based and are power HOGS and not near as adjustable. Plus they weigh about 3-4 times as much."

Hey hey hey - lets be nice, Dennis...My SW200 helps keep one corner of the shop from floating away..

..

Lots to read here, I'll comment on some. Capacitance concerns in heavy plugs/receptacles?? - that's an RF thing that could come into play in LAN connections, but not at 220 or 440. What does come into play is the resistance of each of those P/R points. Capacitors block DC, Inductors impede the flow of AC current, transformers induct current between mutually wound coils, usually to step voltage up or down... Long extension cords of too small a size drop voltage because of resistance of the wire. The finer the strands of wire in any given size stranded wire (which means more strands) will give you less voltage drop in an extension. I changed #8 AL solid out on the feed my old Linde 220 V TIG welder for #4 fine strand (like "welder cable") and you could actually <u>feel</u> the difference. OBTW - you don't use spool guns with a conventional TIG ...TIGS are constant current, MIGS are constant voltage.

Good to see you guys , Happy Holidays!
Gerry

 

[dross]

Gerry, glad your posting.

 

[jchamberlin]

Gerry Idle: I'm glad you chimed in to clear the air. If what you say about the fine strand wire is true, then it would stand to reason that the current flows on the outside of the conductor. The surface area on a large number of smaller strands would be greater than the surface area on a single solid conductor.

Just a thought.

 

[nbartee]

Per my previous post, does anyone know if the Lincoln Weld-Pak 180HD is a good welder?