The Perfect Plow Tractor?

[vthomley]

I can tell you if I had not plowed with a 19 tooth 2nd gear in my 122, I would be more than happy with my 17 tooth second gear in my 1806. I mowed a bit with the 1806 this fall and the 17 tooth is perfect for mowing. So I'm a bit at a huge decision point whether I keep the 17 tooth rear in it or change to a 19 tooth. Maybe a custom built trans like Wyatt's Custom "Wheatland" would be what I need, I mean want.

 

[dmerkle]

Early Cub Cadet 70 and 100's with serial number range of 65458 to 96765 had a 16 tooth 2nd gear. It was a little on the slow side when you mow the grass. The later 70/100's serial number 96766 and above had a 19 tooth gear. The 19 tooth gear was used until the wide frame series came to the market. Cub Cadet went to a 17 tooth 2nd gear.

The serial number break down for the different 2nd gears came from a post Paul Bell made.

Speeds for the
16 tooth-3.0 mph
17 tooth-3.5 mph
19 tooth-3.9 mph

The speed for the different gears came from the different cub Cadet manuals.

I plowed with a Cub Cadet 100 with a 16 tooth second gear at Blunier's. It was a little on the slow side. I also have a Cub Cadet 100 with a 19 tooth 2nd gear in Northwest Ohio. You better have a strong engine and a good clutch if your Cub Cadet has a 19 tooth gear second gear.

 

[sblunier]

Josh,

Pondering my response to this one......more later.....

 

[rbeem]

My (I assume) 17T 2nd gear in my 108 is too fast without throttling down. I wish it was slower, even having the power to pull it.
....and 1st is too slow....that's why I'm moving towards some custom gearing.

 

[dfrisk]

RICK - Actually, the 19T 2nd in my 72 was a very good, almost great plowing gear with a 10 HP K241 in the tractor. Now with a healthy K321 I'd definitely want something faster... much faster, 40% faster.

Plowing faster has several advantages. Cover more ground quicker, ground breaks up better when the furrow gets rolled on top of the last furrow, and reduced chance of the furrow your turning rolling back into where it just came from, I've had to bounce over those road blocks, it would be like a full size tractor trying to drive over a deep freeze!

Only time I couldn't plow in 2nd was at PD #2, where the ground was packed down hard about like blacktop from all the combine & grain cart traffic, and was turning over in HUGE slabs. Several Hydro's were over-heating their Hy-Tran and puking out the vents.

 

[dmerkle]

My Son had an 86 that had a slightly modified 14 horse power engine in it. He put a 13 tooth pinion in the reduction housing instead of the factory 12 tooth. The 86 was able to handle a 12 inch plow without too many problems.

If my memory is working right-didn't Steve B have a 582 with a 19 tooth 2nd gear at one time?

 

[sblunier]

Yes, 582 with 19T 2nd and stout 656cc 16hp Briggs. Good plow machine, for sure!

19T with anything less than 12hp and you won't always stay in 2nd when plowing deep or in hard ground.

 

[sblunier]

 

[sblunier]

Perfect plowing tractor:

SGT frame, 26" Tru-Power or Firestone rubber, 18" V61 fronts, powersteering, dual hyd. lift (rear outlets), Cat "0" 3 point (to pull the 2 bottom), +20HP.....the more the merrier.........AND...............gear drive trans with 15T or 16T 1st,17T or 18T 2nd (oversize tires), and stock 3rd behind a MWSC clutch and with MWSC top shaft.

Surprise some of you?

That said, the hydros pull plows great and offer the "perfect speed" for everything, BUT if you really load them up (like pulling a 2 bottom plow in heavy soil) the losses start to add up fast.

Pulling any 10" or 12" single bottom, the hydro is an awesome machine, especially with an 18hp or 20hp in front of it.....or the monster 982 Onan.

The biggest drawback of the gear drives is the lack of power steering, in most cases hyd. lift, and the $$$$$ to get the stock clutch and trans to stand up to high HP hard pulls.

Of course....This opinion is fresh off of a PD where I discovered my 2072 was bleeding oil off of a bad check/relief valve the last 1/2 of the day, (an issues soon to be corrected with a good used replacement relief) so I may be a little more "gear drive happy" than I would normally be.........especially considering how well my 582 (17T second) ran with a 10" plow. Maybe my 582 needs some hyd. upgrades???

 

[sblunier]

.......oh,and if we are talking "perfect" somebody needs to build up a creeper gear box that isn't 1:1 x 4:1.....rather 1:1 x .9:1 or "10% over". Then you would have a fast 1st and a 17T x 19T 2nd.........

 

[gerickson]

For what it's worth I will throw my 2 cents in. My little 1000 has a 19 tooth second gear. And a 13 tooth top gear. In second gear it will plow with the Hydros. Of course it's not a 10 horse. Cast iron pan and solid mounted motor. Not a stock clutch either. Drive plate is from a narrow frame with aluminum discs. The spring is shimmed. If I was to do one of these again[and I won't] I would do an underdrive top gear. With my setup,third gear is now useless. If you did a 19 or 17 tooth and an underdrive top gear,you could plow in third and second. First would then become like a creeper third gear. Clear as mud?? I've spent ALOT of time and money and effort on my grinder. Love it to death. But with that much cam, it just tries to shake itself apart. And it is succeeding. It was built to just plow and show. Now, a V-twin at 4000rpms in a gear drive with the above gearing. Hmmmm.

 

[jstertz]

This great "real world" information.

Steve B--if I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I recall you working on putting '82 series front sheet metal and dash on a 2182. It seems to me that would be an excellent platform for what you are saying. It would take a built gearbox rear end and some sort of hydraulic pump to run the P/steering and lift. Other than that you would have a bull of a motor with that Kub 3cyl gasser. Liquid cooled to boot. I'm liking the whole concept.

Rick B--why did you feel your tractor gearing was too fast? Was it riding in rough furrows? To me, if you can get enough power and traction, plowing in second at around 4mph should be just fine given that the furrow isn't too rough. If it is, you begin to feel like you are riding a bronc at the rodeo!!!

Glen E--thanks for weighing in on the gearing discussion. This has given me a lot to think about. I'm gonna build a K321 for the Mule sometime in the near future and your comments have tipped me in the direction of paying extra to have the engine balanced. Smooth power is what I want to see in the end. I also have a 782 plow tractor that I'd like to install a Command 23 vtwin into eventually. I think it would be fun if I could obtain all the right parts to put a GD in that machine for plowing. Dreams, dreams!!!

 

[eford]

To add to my previous post, I just picked up a K321 and K341 over the weekend. One is a stand alone from a generator or trash pump, and other might have been green... And a ridiculous stack muffler! Spring should be interesting...
To refresh, I have a 1200 that one of these will end up in. I have not yet done the cross brace upgrade, but that among other things will be coming. With the other 2 K341's I have sitting around, the perfect tractor might not be just one!

 

[rbeem]

Josh,
While I get the advantages of some speed for the plow to effectivly do it's job....even with my built driveline I feel the stresses are 10x everything at the slightly higher speed.
Power is not a problem in any soil, but I do run out of traction some times.
Not to mention, I find myself catching up to the guy ahead of me more often which leads to either throttling back (loss of cooling) or clutching.
More clutching adds a whole pile of stresses and wear in itself.
And yes, bucking bronco. The steering components take a beating, and my arse. Since we are not rolling on 36" tall tires.
So, after several years in the seat of the same plow rig, I'm letting experience guide my choices for what works this set-up.
What ever happened to plowing in 1st gear WOT?

 

[rbeem]

I will add, that I realize that I am operating a 40 year old machine, and that I am not in a competition. I could step it up, but it does not "feel" right. I'm a steward of this machine and I hope it sees another 40 years.
When it comes to all out let'er eat, the non-IH Super frames ride smoother and bigger tires help also. I really liked the 1872 and 2072 that I owned for their ride. (ditch that aluminum rear though)

 

[dfrisk]

RICK - I have to agree, the longer wheelbase, wider track, and bigger tires on an SGT does make them ride nicer by far than a normal CC. And really doesn't make them that much bigger or harder to maneuver in tight spaces.

But all things considered, I'd really rather use one of my full size FARMALLs to plow with if there's enough ground to plow. Even longer and wider and bigger tires.

 

[jstertz]

Thanks Rick for the clear and practical response. All these responses help us as we determine how to set up a purpose driven rig. It also should cause us to dictate how we organize our plow days.

First, taking a look at the rig and deciding what your objectives are. I tend to be a "build it bigger, tougher, faster" guy. However, that isn't always the best thing in the end. I have to ask myself, "I may be able to cut a 6" furrow and plow at 4.5 mph with a well built 100, but the question in the end is, do I really want to do that on that machine." If so, more power to me!!! But it is input like you guys have shared in the last few posts that bring "the other side of the story" into focus. I know that cutting lawn on my diesel super is much smoother and more forgiving than I've experienced on any of my regular GT's but there is also something more "visceral" about cutting on a 50 year old block of iron that can't be touched." I'm with Earl, I may need to build one of each!!!

Second, as we left BPD IX, we talked about all the great times we had but we also noticed the unfortunate disparity between a full power, weighted down JD 430 and a STOCK 1962 CC Original. If the O is pulling an 8" plow at an average depth of 4" and going in first gear, he is gonna hardly seem to be plowing compared to the big JD who is running a Cat O and in the ground sometimes 10" (which is ridiculous I might add but I measured a couple of times). The O driver begins to feel like he is a nuisance to the big machines and it CAN take the fun out of it for him. If the O driver follows the big boys, he can feel like he is gonna tip into the furrow. This disparity of plowing depths doesn't allow the plow to work at its peak efficiency which further causes clumpy furrows, etc. So, we discussed if we ever hosted a plow day we would split the field into categories. Give the best (think easiest known spot) to the tractors running 10hp or less with 8 and 10" plows. Mostly those guys will be running in first gear or around 3mph.
The large class tractors, all running 12" plows and having 18hp and up would get the toughest know spot of the field to play in. This would be primarily super tractors (1872 cubs, 400 series JD, 400 series Case, Bolens HT23 etc). Diesels, high hp gas in this area. These guys can plow at whatever speed they can handle and crowd each others space! If you have a small tractor that is well set up like Wyatt's Wheatland--rock and roll in this category. The last a likely largest section which would be your 12hp to 18hp tractors. Mostly running 10" plows and plowing at mid range speeds about 3-3.5mph.

Maybe this has been tried before with disastrous results but it seems like it would work well to me...

Now the rebuttles...

 

[rbeem]

Josh, you nailed it. Lot's of folks in here own full size tractors (some even steer themselves), that's why this is a hobby and not best tillage discussion.
For me, it's that back to the dirt and single cylinder cylinder gear drive challenge that got me interested in this in the first place.
And I love the look on peoples faces telling them that I went to Illinois to drive my lawn mower around!
But, I am also a performance junkie so I'd like to build a monster plow rig as well. "The perfect plow rig"....and it could be rough on the guy struggling with his old Bolens or Original.
So the limits you are talking of are usually unspoken and tolerated, but I've been hung up plenty of times myself because of mega-furrows.
I for one am so thankfull to get the time and opportunity to plow that if there are rules, I try to follow them.
If I were to turn my newly acquired AC 5010 loose with the smaller GT's there would probably be some crying foul, and rightly so it is more of a compact tractor.
Where is the line? My opinion, the 430 Deere is right there if they play nice and don't bury the plow. They are monsters.

 

[sblunier]

Plow day "segregation"......

Good luck!!!!

I'm probably as qualified as anyone on this forum to comment on this one.

I've been to plow days where they tried the separation thing........it just doesn't seem to work. People plow in the furrow of choice with the people they want to plow with....it's just how it sorts out.

That said, most people plow in "groups" and those groups tend to be matched for both size and in some cases make.

For instance, ever notice that the Deere 430's pulling #15 plows tend to plow together? or with 332's,318's, etc. with 12" cat 0 plows?

I always look at who I'm following when I pull in a furrow......if I'm pulling a 12", then I look for someone who is pulling a 12", or a 10" that's doing a nice job of plowing......I don't jump in on the 8" behind the 73. Likewise, if I'm pulling an 8" or 10" with a standard sized machine (23" tires), I try not to follow a 430/#15.

The secret to keeping everyone happy at plow day is opening SEVERAL lands at once. Chris E. and I opened 6-7 lands Friday afternoon........enough for people to spread out and plow in groups of similar sized equipment........AND SELF REGULATING!!!!!!!

There is nothing worse than having to play police officer at Plow Day.....instead of plowing. If 10 guys are going after +8" deep furrows in one land and 10 more are happy playing 4-5" deep in another.........so much the better.....AND the host gets to PLOW not POLICE.........I'm all for self regulation.....

In the end, we all know that there are huge differences in the equipment out there........but we all know what to look for in a furrow when we pull out of the parking lot and head for the field......

 

[sblunier]

One other thought on the "ultimate plow machine"......it's the one you have to use.

If you need to use your plow tractor to move snow, then you may plow with a hydro even though you give up some HP to the hydro.......what's in the field on any given PD is as much about the other 364 days a year as it is about plow day.