The Franken 169 Project

[Stephen Wattley]

I have a 169..They are sought after by the tractor pulling crowd as you can overbore them and they will put out like 22 horsepower and put them in the 16 horse class and no one knows you have an advantage.. It looks to me like they got to that one.. That looks like they replaced the engine with a AQS engine which is a good engine, but I would stay away from it as it is a frankentractor...

The tractor runs great and he does seem to take good care of it. I would like to sell the snow blower to get back some the money I paid. It has all the manuals lots extra parts and will help a lot working around the cabin I have in the Catskills. Is it still consider a fraken if it just has a newer motor.

 

[bwstevens]

The aqs engines have no balance gears to break the starter cranks the engine much better and the charging system is solid state so it charges much more reliably. Definitely a work tractor upgrade.

 

[kphill]

Stephen I am not trying to cut down that tractor only pointing out the fact that the previous owner saying it has been in the family its whole life (which I do not doubt) .. However that engine that he claims is the original 169 engine is obviously not.. So when someone tries to sell me something like that I wonder what else he is not telling me.. Is it a 12hp?.... 14hp?.. If it has a factory plate on the engine then that is great.. But if it does not it can be anything.. This is why I myself would walk away..

 

[lpalma]

From the pictures it looks like the correct muffler is on it for a 169. Count the head bolts, there should be 10 for a 16hp. I saw that listed on c/l hope you got it cheaper...

 

[Stephen Wattley]

Stephen I am not trying to cut down that tractor only pointing out the fact that the previous owner saying it has been in the family its whole life (which I do not doubt) .. However that engine that he claims is the original 169 engine is obviously not.. So when someone tries to sell me something like that I wonder what else he is not telling me.. Is it a 12hp?.... 14hp?.. If it has a factory plate on the engine then that is great.. But if it does not it can be anything.. This is why I myself would walk away..

i do not remember what he said about engine, but one story from his dad was they purchased this tractor used from a simplicity dealer back in the day, and the tractor was painted the red color, like the other tractor in show room, i wonder if the engine was already swapped? the dad order all the manuals he could get and took excellent care all these years, this garage i saw yesterday after work had the tractor with snow blower and the blower is really good shape, a mint 1963 split window corvett up on wood blocks, a mint 1958 willy jeep he drives around town in and some old triumph motor cycle, i believe the old man he just seems to be simple guy tinker with old stuff. i hope my feeling was c

 

[hydroharry]

From the pictures it looks like the correct muffler is on it for a 169. Count the head bolts, there should be 10 for a 16hp. I saw that listed on c/l hope you got it cheaper...

Dang Lew - you sure have a good eye! It sure does look like the correct and/or original muffler for a 169. I see he maintained the original manual PTO as well. I suspect the dealer is the one that installed the replacement engine. I believe back in the day that "current" (at the time say like 1980) the AQS replacement versions probably cost the dealer less than an original K341 version, so he dropped an AQS into this tractor. As you see it didn't take much to convert it. I think it could be converted back to a non-AQS without to much trouble, if you can find the original missing parts like the flywheel shroud for a 16hp, and the air cleaner. The S/G is probably the easiest thing to find (hahaha).

One other thing - someone mentioned the AQS engines do not have balance gears. That is not correct. I believe the early production AQS engines did still have them. David Kirk had mentioned that previously.

Stephen - the snow thrower looks to be a model "QA42A" which is a nice thrower and works extremely well with a Cub Cadet hydro tractor IMHO. To bad it's painted that Simplicity color since that won't help you recover any of your costs. I wouldn't expect to get alot for it. When I lived in CT I liked buying NJ located items because you seem to have less rust down that way, but the market has changed alot now and selling off an old attachment accessory will not likely get you very much.

 

[snicklas]

I think that engine is a 16HP engine. Reason being, in the picture with the starter that you can see the gear starter and the 169 style muffler, you can also see the dipstick tube. On all our 1650 engines (which basically that is what this engine is), the dipstick tube goes along the outside of the block, and bolts in to the side of the crankcase. The 1450's we have, the dipstick tube goes in the top of the little bump out in the crankcase, and there is no tube along side of the block.

I would happily use this machine. as is. I prefer the flywheel gear starter and the "alternator" style charging system on the Quietline engines... Too bad the original engine isn't still in this machine... but I would not see this as a show stopper.... If that were the case, there are a couple machines over the years we would have passed on........

 

[danderson]

My son has a 16 AQS in his 1250. It too had the bolt on dipstick tube.

 

[hydroharry]

I think that engine is a 16HP engine. Reason being, in the picture with the starter that you can see the gear starter and the 169 style muffler, you can also see the dipstick tube. On all our 1650 engines (which basically that is what this engine is), the dipstick tube goes along the outside of the block, and bolts in to the side of the crankcase. The 1450's we have, the dipstick tube goes in the top of the little bump out in the crankcase, and there is no tube along side of the block.

I would happily use this machine. as is. I prefer the flywheel gear starter and the "alternator" style charging system on the Quietline engines... Too bad the original engine isn't still in this machine... but I would not see this as a show stopper.... If that were the case, there are a couple machines over the years we would have passed on........

Scott and Doug - the shoulder mount dipstick tube on your 16hp engines allows for your block to have balance gears. Doesn't necessarily mean you have them, just that the engine could.

Scott - your 14hp engines in the 1450's, that have a dipstick going straight into the block from the top (on that little bump out) cannot have balance gears. If they did the dipstick would jam into them. Some of the earlier 14hp engines (K321) in the 1450's did have the shoulder mount dipstick (like your 16hp engines) and will most often have balance gears.

 

[hydroharry]

Stephen - here's a couple pics of my 169 so you can see what your tractor should (or would have) looked like. Mine isn't all exactly original either. I made just a few minor changes that most people don't even notice since I used pre and post 169 production original parts. Ooh, and the first pic I'm posting is what mine looked like when I first got it and removed the engine (and no, the fender pan and hood in the back ground are not for it - they are for a Quiet Line). And another thing, these are old pics and the paint color doesn't show correctly. I did use the correct yellow and white.

 

[PACub100]

I personally would go with your gut feeling Stephen. If the owner was anal enough to jot down notes and keep the manuals I'd imagine he took pretty good care of it.
You're looking for a workhorse and it appears you got a good one. As far as the snowthrower, do you have pavement or dirt / gravel driveway? A good blade and some weight will do good for snow removal. But if you have banks on either side of your drive, snowthrower is freaking awesome

 

[PACub100]

Scott and Doug - the shoulder mount dipstick tube on your 16hp engines allows for your block to have balance gears. Doesn't necessarily mean you have them, just that the engine could.

Scott - your 14hp engines in the 1450's, that have a dipstick going straight into the block from the top (on that little bump out) cannot have balance gears. If they did the dipstick would jam into them. Some of the earlier 14hp engines (K321) in the 1450's did have the shoulder mount dipstick (like your 16hp engines) and will most often have balance gears.

I'm being learned... tomorrow I'm gonna look at my 1450's dipstick.

 

[dgeary]

From an originality perspective, the folks comments are generally correct. But from a practical point of view, my opinion is that the AQS engine is better at least from the starting/charging perspective. I converted my 129 over a few years back and have never been happier. Starts much better, especially in cold weather, and I get a consistent charge voltage unlike the old S/G. I also have it solid mounted like the original engine. It is a 12 HP so the vibration wouldn't be the same as a 16 HP.

 

[hydroharry]

From an originality perspective, the folks comments are generally correct. But from a practical point of view, my opinion is that the AQS engine is better at least from the starting/charging perspective. I converted my 129 over a few years back and have never been happier. Starts much better, especially in cold weather, and I get a consistent charge voltage unlike the old S/G. I also have it solid mounted like the original engine. It is a 12 HP so the vibration wouldn't be the same as a 16 HP.

Dennis - I get what you're saying, but now I'm wondering about the air flow for cooling the AQS. The overall design of the engine was to have a muffler box on the front and a nearly sealed tin cover over the head (including that rubber grommet for the spark plug). The air from the flywheel was directly partly to the air cleaner and carb (almost a forced induction) and the remainder air going across the block and head to cool the engine. Without the muffler box the air flow isn't enclosed and goes all over as I recall. Seems to me the best resolution would be to convert back to the original design by obtaining an original style flywheel shroud and air cleaner cover, and do away with the larger AQS style.

 

[bwstevens]

Wouldn't the original airflow eliminate the bendix starter and solid state charging

 

[hydroharry]

Wouldn't the original airflow eliminate the bendix starter and solid state charging

Brian - yes the original flywheel shroud is smaller and doesn't allow for a ring gear on the flywheel so the integrated starter must go along with the solid state charging, and you return to the original old style S/G. Along with the flywheel shroud you need to go back to the original tin work to provide the enclosure around the cylinder fins - so the flywheel air flow is forced across the cylinder fins and the head.

 

[dgeary]

Brian - yes the original flywheel shroud is smaller and doesn't allow for a ring gear on the flywheel so the integrated starter must go along with the solid state charging, and you return to the original old style S/G. Along with the flywheel shroud you need to go back to the original tin work to provide the enclosure around the cylinder fins - so the flywheel air flow is forced across the cylinder fins and the head.

I only used the shroud for the AQS and modified the rest of the original parts to fit with it. I don't recall that there was much for modification. The only other thing that I did was to block off any holes that the AQS shroud had that the original didn't.

 

[Ken Black]

over priced hahhahah.... nothing over priced like a local. tryin to sell a sprint 76 for 1500 hahhahah
it is in orig garage kept shape. but heck no ..

you have a camp in the catskills. i guess u dont go there in the winter or you would keep the blower... haahaha

iam kind of wondering tho how much ... if you can privite message me on it if you want to.. dont have to.. i ask as i see a few in my neck of the woods. omg the prices there asking...

 

[Stephen Wattley]

over priced hahhahah.... nothing over priced like a local. tryin to sell a sprint 76 for 1500 hahhahah
it is in orig garage kept shape. but heck no ..

you have a camp in the catskills. i guess u dont go there in the winter or you would keep the blower... haahaha

iam kind of wondering tho how much ... if you can privite message me on it if you want to.. dont have to.. i ask as i see a few in my neck of the woods. omg the prices there asking...

My cabin is so far up into the mountains on a unmaintained steep gravel road. You need a 4 x4 to get there in summer or you will bottom out. There so way this tractor would help it is too deep snow on dirt roads. I have an old artic cat 340 I almost got stuck in my field going up to check cabin. I do not attempt it anymore when snow up there.

 

[Stephen Wattley]

For sure an AQS
Next question, is it for sure a 16HP
What type of engine mounting does it have
Should be bolted directly to the frame w/no ISO mounts.
Did the seller make mention of an engine swap??
Sure hope you did not overpay for a cobbled 169!

Well I am starting to think I got cobbled. But I still positive I going to change it around, even just as a woods tractor and cut my field.