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PTO and Battery Light

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vmueller

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
7
displayname
Virg Mueller
Have owned my Cub Cadet Mod. 1641 w/ 16 hp B&S engine, Hydrostatic transmission, and 46" three blade mower deck since 1992. It's still in show room condition, but now the battery light comes on when the PTO is activated for the mower deck.

The battery light goes out as soon as the mower deck is turned off.

Is this a battery problem or is there some other issue causing the battery light to turn on?
 
Virg, I see you finally found the right spot to post. Persistence is a virtue rewarded (and necessary) on this site.

As I e-mailed you, I think either your battery is weak, or more likely, your PTO coil is partially shorting out, possibly from frayed wires touching the frame or block. I would remove the PTO and examine it closely. Adjust the air gap as per the manual upon re-installation. If the PTO needs to be replaced, I would advertise in the "Wanted to Buy" section of the Classified before I purchased new from the dealer. The vendors above, especially R. F. Houtz may also be able to help you with used parts.
 
Virg,

Has the battery ever been replaced? I would assume it has since the tractor is an older unit. I do not have any experience with the newer tractors, but on my older one, with the electric clutch (1450 and 1650) the PTO draws a lot of power in normal operation. I had a battery that was low on charge and the PTO would actually turn off because the charge got so low. Do you have another tractor that you could swap batteries with as a test. I would hate to see you goto the trouble of all the troubleshooting of the PTO and it simply be a failing battery. Does the battery start the tractor well, or does it seem to be slow? This same tractor that I have mentioned, it would start, but not run the PTO. However, there was not much reserve in the battery either, it would only start the tractor back to back (like moving it around for service, or swapping attachments) once or twice before it started to turn over slowly. I know on my 2 with healthy batteries and good condition PTO's when I flip the switch, even at WOT, the charge indicator drops down, and stays where it ended up as long as the PTO is running. Shut it off, and it popps right back up to higher on the charge side. This may be what is tripping the light. Just another point of view.
 
Your suggestions encouraged me to do some additional fact gathering before asking for more of your valuable time. The results were as follows;

1. Had my existing battery, which is rated at 665 CA @ 32 degrees F and at 540 CCA at 0 degrees, tested. The print out of the results state;

Voltage: 12.18 V
Measured: 349 CCA
Rated: 340 CCA
Temperature: 77 degrees F
Charge Required

2. The technician explained that, "The size of your existing battery may be over kill for your IH Cub Cadet 1641, but it is more than strong enough as is without having it charged."

3. Reinstalled the battery in my Cub Cadet, started the engine, and then while still parked, ran the engine at full speed for over 15 or 20 minutes before going back and engaging the PTO. The battery light came on immediately!

4. Disengaged the PTO and the battery light went out.

5. But as I was in the process of shutting the engine off, I noticed that the battery light flickered when the key passed the "Lights On" position. I restarted the engine and while at full throttle and the PTO turned off, turned the head lights on. The battery light came on immediately.

My question now Jeremiah is, don't these facts suggest that there is some condition or thing other than a defective PTO switch causing the battery light to turn on?

Look forward to reading your suggestions, and thank you in advance.
 
Probably the "voltage sensor" or Cub used quite a myriad of names for these over the years. It is attached to the frame, probably near the dash battery tray area. If it does not have a good ground it will give false readings and the light comes on too easily.

Attaches with a single screw, about the size or a stack of six quarters with a quick connect wiring plug attached. IF you can remove the hold down screw clean everything to bare metal and retry. If not these are in the range of $26-32 to replace. Yes, these do have a reputation for this issue.
 
Virg, Jim has long experience working with tractors of your vintage, I would check out the voltage sensor as he suggests if the tests I share with you fail to find the cause of your problem. The component he mentions is shown in the diagram below copied from the Wiring Diagrams PDF found on this site (see Main Menu).

292062.jpg


292063.jpg


The wiring diagram shows only a single wire for the alternator. It does now show a regulator, but that doesn't mean your engine doesn't have one, I know the 16 HP Briggs & Stratton engine I once had in my 782 had a regulator attached to the outside of the flywheel housing. According to their own documentation, Briggs & Stratton equipped engines of the era with no fewer than seven (7) different alternators and two different regulators. One of the alternators actually put out only DC voltage (there appears to have been a diode placed in the line out), of the remaining six (6) types, three (3) had AC two-wire outputs and three (3) had single-wire outputs. Yours is apparently one of the three single-wire units which (I think) came in a 5 Amp, a "Tri-circuit" (two-wire output from the alternator yoked to form a single wire output to the tractor), and a 9 Amp version. I suspect that if your output is genuinely a single wire AC output going into a square box with a screw in the middle, your output may be limited to 5 Amps, but is more likely 9 amps; if you have a two-wire output and the regulator has two screws, one on each side, then you may have a 10 Amp or even a 16 Amp output. The Briggs document tells us that, "The proper flywheel part number and/or the alternator magnet size will determine the alternator type or output. See repair instruction manual for additional information." I know that I could not increase my output to the maximum 16 Amps without buying a new $200.00 flywheel, but I could upgrade my alternator and regulator to a two-wire version and go from 5 Amp output with small magnets to 10 Amp output still using the smaller magnets.

Anyway, if you want to verify the other components in the system, beyond the voltage sensor, then you will want to check the AC voltage being output from the alternator BEFORE it goes into the regulator, and then check the level of the DC voltage coming out of the regulator (which is most likely nothing much more than a bridge rectifier in the case of the smaller, square, unit). You should be well above 24 volts AC at full throttle conditions (3200 to 3400 RPM) into the regulator and over 13 volts DC out of the regulator with the motor running. You should try to get the readings with everything connected, but given the nature of the Briggs connectors, you may have to break the line to get one or the other of them. Put the black lead on ground in each case if you only have one wire out of the alternator. If you have two wires, get the AC out by putting a lead on either line, NOT to ground; your DC reading will still reference ground, though.

Alternatively, if you put a volt meter from ground to the battery before you start the engine and then again after it is running, you should get an idea if the system is healthy. You should get in the neighborhood of 12 volts before starting, and you should get in the neighborhood of 14 volts after it is running without the PTO or lights on. If the charging system is working OK then all you have to do is swap out the voltage sensor as Jim suggests, or junk it and mount an ammeter or voltmeter on the dash (if you can find the room).

If you suspect there is a problem with the charging system, the following are known issues often revealed upon further inspection. (1) short to ground (anywhere), (2) poor connection (anywhere), (3) bad regulator, (4) bad alternator. The alternator can fail because of (a) wire insulation damage from rubbing on the sheet metal or frame into the regulator, (b) because of wires in the windings shorting to each other or to ground, (c) or because the magnets have come loose on the inside of the flywheel and are all stuck to the stator (as was the case with a Kohler Mag 18 I picked up to replace the Briggs motor when it failed). The magnets are actually the easiest problem to fix, all you need to do is buy some epoxy and glue them back on in precisely the order, orientation, and spacing as they were originally and the flywheel works good as new. I used a drill bit to space them all out evenly. Be very careful to preserve the order/orientation upon removal if you find they have come loose. I know that my tractor performed just as you describe, there was apparently enough juice produced to keep the battery healthy enough to crank the engine, but not enough to keep the needle above zero when I used the PTO, and if I turned my lights on while mowing, it would kill the battery.

Hopefully, all you will need to do is scratch some rust off and re-attach your voltage sensor and all will be well.

Good luck, and again, welcome to the Forum.
 
With the engine at full throttle (WOT), what is the voltage at the battery terminals...???
 

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