Loader tractor build - Research & Suggestions

[Jack Baker]

The plans detail how to build an attachment for the pump. It sets beneath the PTO and is driven by it. The plans indicate the pump required (and all the hydraulic components) plus recommended sources.

 

[bpientka]

Mike,

How’s the work going? I built a loader and backhoe following the Cadplans. The plans were pretty good so I followed them and only made a few minor changes. Been using loader for two years now and the backhoe just under a year. Happy to talk about any details.

 

[mpatterson]

Mike,

How’s the work going? I built a loader and backhoe following the Cadplans. The plans were pretty good so I followed them and only made a few minor changes. Been using loader for two years now and the backhoe just under a year. Happy to talk about any details.

Still in the planning process, haven't actually started the build yet. Trying to do the research and collect everything I need for it first, as well don't want to start it until I solve my planter problem for spring in case I need the garage to rebuild a planter first.

I've decided I'm going to take the Kubota engine from the G1700 I have in the shed and very likely the Massey Ferguson 1460 frame and rear end. That will give me the rear 3pth hook up and once I have more time to examine it, a rear PTO I think. It looks like other than the belt I have most of the parts for it. Not that I will have any attachments needing a pto - but its nice to have it on the tractor. Will need to either use the front axle off my 782 or 1250 parts tractor OR I need to make a new one with heavier hubs and spindles as it will have the extra weight of a loader. I have the dash tower for both a 782 and a 1250 for it. I would need to make a hood and side panels. I do have a rough grill for the 782, but making new inserts wouldn't be an issue I don't think. I do have some of the stuff from the Massey as far as tin work - just not totally sure I like the style as of yet?

I will need to run a pump off the front of the engine of some kind to power the hydraulics of the loader. I will need a reservoir tank for the hydraulic oil as well. Not sure if I want it in the one vertical post of the loader frame or a separate tank elsewhere? I know Matt G has some stuff written up on his website that I need to read again (been a bit since I was on his site).

How do I figure out how much oil I will need in the system? Is there a site with a conversion chart or something? This many hoses, this long, this size plus this many cylinders, this size..... ?? I'm no mathematician so I need a computer to do the math if its not simple math of 2+2 = 7

Did you find anything major wrong with the CAD plans? Do you find the loader design, shape works or should it have longer or shorter arms, the bucket should have been shaped this way vs this way, etc? What were the minor changes you found you made because it worked better for you? Did you find if you had the traction and weight in the back end you could move topsoil and scrape ice off driveway easily with it? What kind of reach can you get out of that design? Can you dump stuff in to a regular tandem dump trailer with 2x8 extensions?

I'm debating on the tire size as well. Since I'm basically starting from scratch, might as well build it right. Do I stick with 26" rears and 18" fronts? Do I switch and see if I can get a 28" or 30" rear tire? Is there any advantage other than ground clearance? I know it would add to the cost, that's for sure! Thinking either an ag or construction style tread design so I'd always have something to grab year round. However, I don't like the idea of chains on ag tires - I find they get beat up too much - at least I never liked them on Grandpa's old Allis Chalmers when hauling manure to the pile each day. Slipping on the ice with it because the chains would drop between the lugs. I don't know, maybe it was the chains too. I know they wouldn't have be a two link set up like we have on our Cubs!

Certainly have a lot of ideas/points to consider as well as to address so I don't regret it in the end. I know for sure I'm going to have a two pedal forward/reverse design. No way I want a dash mount or single pedal set up. I can't stand the single pedal hydro set up. What kind of kink in your leg do you need to have to be comfortable with your foot running that all day? My legs certainly aren't designed to be held in that odd position for that long!

 

[Jack Baker]

What did you do for the hydraulic pump to run the loader and hoe?

What did you do for the hydraulic pump to run the loader and hoe?

 

[Jack Baker]

The plans detain how to build a support for the pump. It sets below the PTO and is powered by it. Plans also include pump and all hydraulic component recommendations as well as sources.

 

[mpatterson]

Was kinda hoping to find out what others have used for loader pumps in these plans as well as other loader builds. I know Matt mentions how large the one was he used. I'm not planning on buying plans to build it - want to use my ideas as well as other ideas I've seen over the years. Just wanted to see what was being used for a pump so I wasn't getting one that was too small.

 

[dschwandt]

My DanCo pump runs off the pulley that's already on the rear of the crankshaft.
Check into that option as well.

 

[mpatterson]

My DanCo pump runs off the pulley that's already on the rear of the crankshaft.
Check into that option as well.

Yeah, I'm kinda looking at all options at the moment to see which one best suits the set up when the time comes. I pulled the G1700 up to the garage today along with the Massey frame/rear end and took some extra shielding off the G1700. Ends up the diesel in it has a double pully at the front of the tractor (guess the back of the engine since the rad is in front of the dash). It runs a shaft drive through the front axle pivot to a PTO shaft to a mower gearbox. But at the end of the double pulley, it is a splined shaft to run a front mount snow blower I'm guessing? So I'm thinking I might be able to run it off that splined shaft hooked up with a Lovejoy coupler? I truthfully don't know how the hydro unit is driven on this thing. I need to get the deck off it and some more shields to investigate. I can't imagine it is driven hydraulically like the Case tractors were.

Any of you guys that have loaders, do you find the spool valve to run the loader is best mounted at the rear post for the loader arms or you prefer it near the fenders?

 

[mpatterson]

When you look at an engine like this arrangement - is the radiator still considered the front of the engine? I'm wanting to turn this engine around so the radiator is actually to the front of the tractor if possible - biggest thing is if it is going to spin everything else the same way when I'm done?

What directions does the hydro unit normally spin for Cub and Massey Ferguson? Clockwise I'm thinking if I remember correctly. Is it possible to change the direction if needed, or does that mean an entirely new set up inside the pump?

Kubota D662 Engine: Specifications and Technical Data (tractorgearbox.com) - Link thanks to Matt G.

TractorData.com Massey Ferguson 1450 tractor transmission information

I built a small tag along cart yesterday to move this tractor - what a bear of a tractor! The cart worked out ok, saved me a lot of back breaking work.

 

[bpientka]

Mike

Here are my thoughts.


Q- Not sure if I want it in the one vertical post of the loader frame or a separate tank elsewhere?
A- I went with a separate reservoir because I used it to offset the single arm loader.

Q-How do I figure out how much oil I will need in the system?
A-my general hydraulic understanding is the reservoir should be sized the same as pump flow rate. So 5 gpm should have a 5 gal reservoir. That being said this is usually on big equipment were size and weight are not an issue. I am running about 1.3 gals with a 2.5 gpm pump. Seems to work well. Hydraulic fluid says cool.

Q-Is there a site with a conversion chart or something?
A-I think I answered it above.

Q-This many hoses, this long, this size plus this many cylinders, this size..... ?
A-the hose lengths depend on location of things. You need to adjust based on how the hoses are run and the fittings on the cylinders/valve. The reservoir to pump hose is larger and is based on what fitting the pump has. I think I am 3/4” or 1” hose feeding the pump but 3/8” leaving the pump. All my loader lines are 3/8”. 1/4” would have worked but 3/8 were not much more $ and I figured they also added to the fluid volume in the system. Also I stepped up any quick connectors to 1/2”. Again rule I heard somewhere just because quick connectors can be a restriction. My hydraulic system seems a little over built but even after 2 hrs using the backhoe and loader the hydraulic fluid is only warm to the touch. Fluid restrictions often cause heat.

Q-Did you find anything major wrong with the CAD plans?
A- not really. The plan seemed to be good. The only change I did was the mounting brackets on the tractor. I created larger brackets which utilized existing holes in the frame or existing bolts for attachment. I also ran the brackets all the way to the front of the tractor to also serve as the base for the support arm for the loader post. Happy to send you more pictures as the mounting brackets were my design.

More in next post

 

[bpientka]

2nd post

Q-Did you find if you had the traction and weight in the back end you could move topsoil and scrape ice off driveway easily with it?
A-yes you need weight. I have loaded tires and cast iron wheel weights. Without any weight the rear tires spin very easily. I made a large concrete block which i put on my rear 3pt hitch (just under 200 lbs). This seems to be perfect weight. The bucket can have good down pressure (front not too light) and the rear wheels have good tract

Q- What kind of reach can you get out of that design? Can you dump stuff in to a regular tandem dump trailer with 2x8 extensions?
A- I can dump into a pickup truck but the front of the tractor gets very close to the side of the truck. Remember the more you push the bucket out the more weight you will need on the back end.

Q- Do I stick with 26" rears and 18" fronts? Do I switch and see if I can get a 28" or 30" rear tire? Is there any advantage other than ground clearance?
A- in my opinion don’t go to larger tires. Using the loader puts a lot of pressure on the driveline. The larger tire will increase that pressure. As for ground clearance this is still a 2wd garden tractor so in my mind more ground clearance is not needed.

Q-tires/chains
A- I am running lawn tires with 2 link v bar chains and they seem to work well.

Q-controls-
A-I put my hydraulic loader valve on the opposite side of the tractor to the tractor speed control lever.

 

[bpientka]

The hydraulic valve is the tough item. I went with a brand hydraulic valve. I wanted a valve with a float and one that had a pressure relief valve that could be set low.

https://www.brand-hyd.com/Products/Valves/Flow_Controls/
model - LV22TKTSA3BW

 

[mpatterson]

2nd post

Q-Did you find if you had the traction and weight in the back end you could move topsoil and scrape ice off driveway easily with it?
A-yes you need weight. I have loaded tires and cast iron wheel weights. Without any weight the rear tires spin very easily. I made a large concrete block which i put on my rear 3pt hitch (just under 200 lbs). This seems to be perfect weight. The bucket can have good down pressure (front not too light) and the rear wheels have good tract

Q- What kind of reach can you get out of that design? Can you dump stuff in to a regular tandem dump trailer with 2x8 extensions?
A- I can dump into a pickup truck but the front of the tractor gets very close to the side of the truck. Remember the more you push the bucket out the more weight you will need on the back end.

Q- Do I stick with 26" rears and 18" fronts? Do I switch and see if I can get a 28" or 30" rear tire? Is there any advantage other than ground clearance?
A- in my opinion don’t go to larger tires. Using the loader puts a lot of pressure on the driveline. The larger tire will increase that pressure. As for ground clearance this is still a 2wd garden tractor so in my mind more ground clearance is not needed.

Q-tires/chains
A- I am running lawn tires with 2 link v bar chains and they seem to work well.

Q-controls-
A-I put my hydraulic loader valve on the opposite side of the tractor to the tractor speed control lever.

How thick of steel did you use for loader arms, assuming 1/4" wall?

 

[bpientka]

It varies depending on location. It went down to 3/16”.

 

[mpatterson]

Had some time yesterday to start working on this tractor. Tell you one thing - anyone who wants to tear down a Kubota tractor - pack a lunch! OMG, what a mess of wires, braces, bolts, crazy!
Starting to mock up where the engine will go in the frame. This is going to be a long slow process but hopefully worth it in the end! Was hoping to turn the engine around, but will be too much work to get the drive shaft spinning in correct direction to run the hydro. So will stick with the odd placement of a backwards engine. Will just need to make sure I have enough ventilation below the steering wheel to keep air flowing for cooling. Thinking of doing mesh or louvered area on the bottom of the dash tower? Side panels on the donor tractor where solid, so I hope I'm able to keep them closed in similar to the 82 series?
Time will tell.

 

[etopel]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can reverse the input to the hydro if you flip the charge pump housing.

 

[mpatterson]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can reverse the input to the hydro if you flip the charge pump housing.

Really???!!!

That would certainly be helpful if I could!!

 

[mpatterson]

Need some help with suggestions on where to place the battery, fuel tank, and aux hydraulic reservoir on this tractor. Bear in mind, I'll likely need to make both the fuel tank and hydraulic reservoir tank. The fuel tank I have I don't think will work - will try it though. Its about the same size as the battery give or take.

Was debating on building a fuel tank to be placed at the back over top of the hydro unit, that way I can keep the battery & aux reservoir tank up front near the engine & pump. Looks like so far the aux pump will be run off the back of engine (front of tractor) as it has a double pully set up already to drive off of. Mount the pump just below it with some short belts & tensioner assembly between them.

The tractor the engine came out of didn't have a lot of open area for air flow to aid in cooling as you can see from the crappy angled picture - I'm trying to keep as much air flow area available as possible.

So would you put the aux tank between dash & top of rad, trying to keep it as short as possible not to block the rad? Then put the battery above front axle? This means I'd have hoses running below engine to and from pump, but it would be closer to the hydraulic controls too. Or would you put the battery in the middle as mocked up in picture and the hydraulic tank up front?

Right now the frame is cut under the engine due to the fact the frame needed to be lengthened to accommodate engine and radiator. Right now looks to be about 20 - 24 inches I'm needing to add. I guess I could put as much as I wanted, but I also want the tractor to look balanced and proportional when finished.

Looking for suggestion.

 

[mpatterson]

Another thought would be to make an aux tank on the side of the loader post, or in it?

 

[mgonitzke]

If I were you, I'd be trying to add as little length as possible to the frame, or maneuvering is going to become very awkward. I don't see why you need all that extra frame ahead of the engine, and the exhaust and air cleaner can be rerouted. I'd also consider moving the radiator and fan and use a setup similar to the CC diesels. That will fit a lot better in there, and you may find you barely need to lengthen the frame at all.