IH Cub Cadet Pulling and Hot Rodding

[dvogt]

Dave the valves won't rotate unless you have a engine that had valve rotaters, the lifters have a slight radious to the face so they should turn or you'ld really have wear problems. I've never sat and looked at one that close but common sense would think it.
12-14 its been talked about alot in here.

 

[wcompton]

Question-
Can the 9T starter pinon be swapped over from a KT-17 starter in place of the 10T K341 starter pinon. I'm guessing "no" because the pitch diam might be differnt, but after working with Denso, Bosch, and Prestolite on starters a couple years ago it seems that the gear gurus worked a little magic with an altered root diam and pressure angle to make it work.

Just wondering because I found that a KT-17 ring gear and K321 ring gear will exchange, the KT-17 ring gear has 1 more tooth, with the change of pinon gears the ratio moves from a 10.5:1 ratio to a 11.8:1 ratio. Might be a little more torque for a higher compression engine or if I moved to a cam that I can change the timing which wouldn't have the ACR.

(Message edited by wcompton on May 16, 2004)

 

[kweimann]

Dave K,

.015 is loose for an intake, should be .009/.010 Cold. As far as rotators, On engines that I've seen with them, they are either on the Exhaust only or on both valves. If just one, better to have on the exhaust valve where all the heat is for better wear on the seat. Kenny

 

[dkamp]

Hmmm... bizzare...

I pulled the head off my little boat's inline 250 chev six. A year ago, I was showing my uncle around in the boat... we'd been doing quite a bit of zipping around, but idled it down and were chit-chatting when it just konk'd out. Tried to get it started, but to no avail.

After messing with controls and checking everything, I moved on to compression test, and found that all cylinders were well above 150psi, except for #2... totally zippo. Set it aside for the summer... and fall... and winter.

Well, just got the lid off, and found no hole in the piston, and both valves were in fine shape.

Cylinder bore looks new, and piston fitment appears tight... piston's moving up and down when cranking, and head gasket isn't blown.

So I'm totally without concept of why the cylinder would show NO vacuum, much less no compression, and just not fire.

I'm taking the head into the guy that he did Anybody have any suggestions? I'm pooped and confounded...

 

[kweaver]

Dave -- first off a 250 CHEVY will run on 3 cylinders so that one cylinder wouldn't cause it to "konk". I had a 66 CHEVY truck that a guy put on a SUNN machine once and said watch this , and with the machine he cut out 3 of the cylinders and it kept running , not smooth as silk but it ran !
Even with stuck rings it would have to show some compression and have some vacum ... I bet the valves aren't opening ... maybe the lifters aren't pumping up (DTDT) or the cam lobes are MIA.

 

[dkirk]

Dave,

I'd have a look at the lifters on that suspect cylinder. It's possible that trapped sludge causes them to keep one or both valves from seating completely once running oil pressure is established.

Ken's right, should have still started on the remaining 5 cylinders. I've had it happen more than once - two unrelated problems occurring simultaneously. One of Murphy's Laws.

 

[wcompton]

Well, more on the starter pinon/ring gear deal.

Found that the KT-17 ring gear in a Kohler parts catalog did find it's way onto at least a K321 and K341, but found later models had a unique number, I'm assuming the gear with one extra tooth is the one put in newer models. In the end, don't know what all that ends up meaning, but I found enough that I'm going to try using the KT-17 starter pinon and flywheel ring gear on my K321. Time will tell if it's worth it.

 

[kweaver]

Wyatt -- is a 1.3 difference really gonna help or be worth it or are you just curious ?
And are you saying that it would be possible to buy a starter from somebody and it be the wrong tooth count even though it's from the same model ?

 

[wcompton]

Ken-
No, K series electric starters are all 10-tooth, AFAIK. The KT-17 has a 9T gear. So far that I can acertain, both may interchange. Sounds fishy, but quite a few starters on the market have a sort of "fudged" tooth profile to give options, versus tooling castings for offset pinons, I think Delco does this quite a bit on standard SAE starters.

The KT-17 ring gear I found has 106 teeth, versus the 105 on the K321 ring gear, BUT they are slightly differnt diameters, but nothing that could be shimmed at the starter mount. So it's a 10.5:1 ratio with the K321/K341 setup and 11.8:1 ratio for the KT-17 starter.

Given, I'm putting the cart well ahead of the horse since I'm not armed with the power curve of the starter, nor do I have the cranking requirement figured out. I may in fact be chasing a problem that doesn't exist, but I have found out well enough that there seems to be options worth exploring.

 

[dfrisk]

WYATT - An old co-worker up at G&L who was a 35+ year veteran of manufacturing gears & shafts was My "Answer Man" for some of the weird things machine tool companies would do with gear tooth profiles. On something intermitant duty like a starter I think an extra tooth on the ring gear and one less tooth on the starter pinion would work fine. An Ignition Interupter switch may be in order also!

 

[dkamp]

Hi Ken, Hey David!

Well, it sure did cause it to konk... and there was a LEETLE chunk of something that managed to get under the #2 intake valve. Invisible from the angle I was lookin' at, but once the valve was out, it was clearly the case. It allowed enough of that cylinder's breathing to blow back into the intake.


As for running fine missing a few cylinders, yeah, that'd usually be the case... but not here. About six years ago, I had a camshaft go bad (flattened the intake lobe on #5), but it ran very well on 5 cylinders from Red Wing, Mn, all the way home, cruising at 45mph. Besides bein' down on power just a little bit, and having a tapping-noise, it ran just fine.

If I'd fitted this one up with a row of Webers, it'd probably be fine with this valve, too, but being limited to a marine intake/exhaust manifold, I was out a few options... the marine intake is made for a QuadraJet, and can't fit it up for port-fuel-injeciton.

I'm running a GM TBI-220 throttle body unit. At idle, it's got darned-near no vacuum- it's running .512 lift with 270d duration (@ 0.050), and the exhaust is submerged at idle... so where there'd normally be 14in. HG, I'm seeing more like... 5.

The exhaust is liquid-cooled, so I can't run an O2 sensor. I've programmed the EFI ECM to stay in open-loop mode, and it's running speed-density based on my own fuel maps. It's extremely reliant on the MAP sensor to run.

The way I've combatted the low idle vacuum, is to use Rhodes lifters (variable duration thingies that collapse down early when below 1200rpm). The rockers are full-roller Harlan Sharp jobs on big thick thread-in studs.

Since the water burping out of the exhaust causes erratic MAP signals, I've set up the fuel map to run pretty rich at idle. The drive doesn't tolerate shifting above 700rpm or so (plus, it tends to jerk the boat pretty hard), so I use the Park-Neutral input (normally for emmission-control purposes) to alter my idle-air motor and ignition timing (by about 3 degrees) to keep it running nicely, and keep the rpm below 700rpm.

But anyway, the valve's been lapped, and sealing tight again, so as soon as I can get back in there with a new gasket, I'll put her all back together and be in Fat City. Water's smooth-as-glass out here this morning, it'd be a great time to go for a ludicrous-speed blast up to Clinton and back... but I gotta go to a meeting (sigh).

 

[rmull]

Man...my head hurts after reading some of the stuff you post...

 

[sblunier]

Ryan,

What gear sets are you running in you 1408???? Stock wide frame 2nd??? or did you swap it for the early narrow frame 19 tooth????

I'm trying to collect up some parts for my 128 project and noticed that the wide frame gear drives seemed to have the 16T or 17T second.....S-L-O-W for some high HP plowing.

Any thoughts???

 

[dvogt]

I believe the 128 rearends had a 19 , the 1000 & 1200 had a 17

Wyatt I believe they interchange. we used to run KT starters on our 16 singles when the stock 16 starters wouldn't start them anymore.

 

[dfrisk]

Steve - My 72 has the 19-T & only 10 HP and I can plow in 2nd almost everywhere except @ PD #2. With 14+ HP I think the 19-T would be best.

 

[dkamp]

Sorry, Ryan- take two asprin and call your girlfriend in the morning... :-}

 

[wcompton]

FWIW-
I'll be running a 13-15-17 with 23% OD in my tractor. Gives a nice range for plowing IMHO.

 

[kweaver]

Dave -- Rhodes Lifters , BTDT , worked better when they were adjusted as a stock lifter. I ran them in a 400 SBC punched .030" over with GM's factory 327 / 350 horse Vette cam and 8.5 slugs. For that little 400 to be bolted into a 1/2 ton 4x4 full size Chevy with automatic trans it sure would smoke the tires in first and second until it broke a valve spring on the tail end of a 200 foot burnout in front of a ferd guys house

but I got it home okay. They may have been better suited in the 327 with the 350hp Vette cam and fulie heads and 11.5 forged TRW's I built 10 years prior to the 400.

Well at least we were right in thinking your problem was in the valve train , we just thought it wasn't opening when actually we were 180 off.

Hammer Down Dude !

 

[sblunier]

Don,

This one is definately a 16 or 17......my 100 (with a 102 rear, 19T) will out run it no problem.

BUT, this tranny has been messed with...it has a 128 serial # but a 102 shifter and shows signs of being worked on.

Do pullers typically keep stock gear sets, or are there a bunch of good used 19T's out there?????

 

[rmull]

I have a 17T in the 1408..stock 1200. I was plowing 5-6" deep in 3rd gear at Travis' last fall. 7-8" deep in 3rd @ WFM in the Menomonee sand.

I would go for at least a 19, or maybe even a 20-21 for plowing gear. I plan on either adding a OD like Wyatt, or going 19T 2nd, and 22-23 for 3rd.

I have 70lb weights on the inside and outside of both rear wheels, and run 4-5 42lb front weights. Almost 500lbs, but I don't have to worry about hanging off the land side of the tractor either, and there is slippage when I BURY the plow.