Engine oil

[jdrong]

I switched to multi grade oil in all my small engines decades ago, with no known ill effects to my knowledge, and maybe the benefit of a little easier starting during cold Minnesota winters. As far as zinc is concerned, does anyone realize there are many different formulations of the so-called zinc? The zinc in diesel engine oils is formulated for the lower rpm and heat range that a diesel engine runs in. There are different formulations for higher rpm and higher heat range that gas engines operate in, especially high-performance engines. I believe that most of our zinc myths come from high preformance engine builders that beat their engines to death and needed something to blame when the engine failed. Zinc may or may not have been eliminated because of clogging catalytic converters, at one time leaded gas took all the blame and zinc was never mentioned. Whatever the real reasons are the one fact is that oil has gotten much better and in the majority of cases zinc is not needed for normal use.

 

[RAllison]

I switched to multi grade oil in all my small engines decades ago, with no known ill effects to my knowledge, and maybe the benefit of a little easier starting during cold Minnesota winters. As far as zinc is concerned, does anyone realize there are many different formulations of the so-called zinc? The zinc in diesel engine oils is formulated for the lower rpm and heat range that a diesel engine runs in. There are different formulations for higher rpm and higher heat range that gas engines operate in, especially high-performance engines. I believe that most of our zinc myths come from high preformance engine builders that beat their engines to death and needed something to blame when the engine failed. Zinc may or may not have been eliminated because of clogging catalytic converters, at one time leaded gas took all the blame and zinc was never mentioned. Whatever the real reasons are the one fact is that oil has gotten much better and in the majority of cases zinc is not needed for normal use.

That's some good info!

 

[mgonitzke]

Just a note. I've used NON-detergent straight 30W in my Kohler 241 Cub Cadets for 40 years and never had any problems, no rebuilds, no excessive oil consumption, or anything. I was told many years ago the same thing this guy's auto supply said and it made sense then and it makes sense now. JMO.

You do you...that "advice" is decades outdated, was never true anyway (my Dad's 1927 Farmall has an oil filter...) and is in direct contradiction with the engine manufacturer's recommendations. There is no non-detergent oil made that meets the API spec required by Kohler, and never has been. It will be API SA (if it has a rating at all), which is not suitable for use in engines built after 1930. The service manual states that the oil you use must have a rating of SF or higher (current is SN+ IIRC). You'd have to go extremely far out of your way to find non-detergent oil for it, and then pay more for it than you would a modern 30W oil that is vastly superior in every way.

 

[1811Cub]

The zinc debate has been front and center mostly due to soft aftermarket flat tappet camshafts failing in older auto engines, especially with performance valve springs. The metal is not being treated as well as it should and poor metallurgy for both the lifter and cam lobe surfaces, so they fail quickly-even if the proper initial break in procedure was followed.

In these small engines, the valve spring pressure is relatively low, so zinc content is not a huge deal.

 

[RAllison]

I did find some of this at Rural K awhile back

 

[jack casey]

Just a note. I've used NON-detergent straight 30W in my Kohler 241 Cub Cadets for 40 years and never had any problems, no rebuilds, no excessive oil consumption, or anything. I was told many years ago the same thing this guy's auto supply said and it made sense then and it makes sense now. JMO.

Geez, I started something. I had bought Wolf's Head Super duty non-detergent oil locally. The WH site is under construction so I found the John R Young site which says 'Wolf's Head non-detergent is a quality crankcase mineral oil....and may be used wherever an API SA/SB mono grade oil is recommended.' Still, I returned the ND in exchange for the D oil. I have found Rotella 30 wt at Walmart but rather not depend on them. Futurely, if I can't find any 30wt will a 5-40 blend or synthetic work in these K241's?
Jack

 

[Greg Riutzel]

There's more to "zinc" than just boundary protection or cam protection. It is used also as an anti-oxidant, among others, for protection of oil from thermal breakdown. I don't think it will ever go away completely and most good oils have it already in their additive package. That's mainly why I do not condone doping good oil with off the shelf additives. The chemistry can get messed up.

As to viscosity, we really need to focus on what's printed in the Owner's Manual. Sure the oil has changed, but the engines have morphed as well. As air cooled goes, these engines used to have looser fits and why the OEMs often pointed out in their lube tables that going anything thinner than the 1st choice may increase oil consumption such as going 10-30 instead of straight 30 for operating temps between 32* and 100* outside.

Checking build specs, the K series for example, there were 3 styles of pistons. Style A had a .007"-.010" cylinder clearance, C&D styles had .003"-.005". Even water cooled truck engines would have piston diameters over 4" before they get that close to that clearance while ours are barely 3 to 3 3/4". That's a lot of slopp'in piston rock'in go'in on at start up until things warm up and expand. I would want some oil body to cushion the gap. Now granted as things get colder outside the viscosity requirement drops, but it's all relative and there will still be "thickness".

For comparison the Kohler 7500 series manuals recommend 10-30, but their piston fits are only .0007-.002" clearance. That's right, 3 zeros is not a typo.

The Command Pro commercial series recommends 10-30 or 20-50 oil depending on service and ambient temps. 2 styles of pistons are listed: A with a .0015-.003" fit and a B with .0007" - .002".

The Kohler website does not list which oil to use, instead they simply tell you to find it in the Owner's Manual, there are just to many variables, engines, and OEM requirements so that is where truth is, the Owner's Manual.

So just with an overview I can see older engines with looser fits need thicker if not also straight weight oils and adjusted to conditions such as outside temps.
Newer engine designs have tighter fits and work well with more modern oils particularly multi-viscosity and synthetic blends.

One way that multi-vis oils are better than straight viscosity is if there isn't any straight weight. Then some lube is better than no lube, again guided by an Owner's Manual.

 

[RAllison]

There's more to "zinc" than just boundary protection or cam protection. It is used also as an anti-oxidant, among others, for protection of oil from thermal breakdown. I don't think it will ever go away completely and most good oils have it already in their additive package. That's mainly why I do not condone doping good oil with off the shelf additives. The chemistry can get messed up.

As to viscosity, we really need to focus on what's printed in the Owner's Manual. Sure the oil has changed, but the engines have morphed as well. As air cooled goes, these engines used to have looser fits and why the OEMs often pointed out in their lube tables that going anything thinner than the 1st choice may increase oil consumption such as going 10-30 instead of straight 30 for operating temps between 32* and 100* outside.

Checking build specs, the K series for example, there were 3 styles of pistons. Style A had a .007"-.010" cylinder clearance, C&D styles had .003"-.005". Even water cooled truck engines would have piston diameters over 4" before they get that close to that clearance while ours are barely 3 to 3 3/4". That's a lot of slopp'in piston rock'in go'in on at start up until things warm up and expand. I would want some oil body to cushion the gap. Now granted as things get colder outside the viscosity requirement drops, but it's all relative and there will still be "thickness".

For comparison the Kohler 7500 series manuals recommend 10-30, but their piston fits are only .0007-.002" clearance. That's right, 3 zeros is not a typo.

The Command Pro commercial series recommends 10-30 or 20-50 oil depending on service and ambient temps. 2 styles of pistons are listed: A with a .0015-.003" fit and a B with .0007" - .002".

The Kohler website does not list which oil to use, instead they simply tell you to find it in the Owner's Manual, there are just to many variables, engines, and OEM requirements so that is where truth is, the Owner's Manual.

So just with an overview I can see older engines with looser fits need thicker if not also straight weight oils and adjusted to conditions such as outside temps.
Newer engine designs have tighter fits and work well with more modern oils particularly multi-viscosity and synthetic blends.

Good info Greg!

 

[gary noblit]

Greg, great explanation..Thanks for the effort...

 

[Jake Olsen]

I do like the statement that some lube is better than no lube.

 

[jdrong]

This is after all an International Cub Cadet forum and comparing oil recommendations from late model commercial or industrial kohler engines is getting off topic and only adds to the confusion. What was the original question again? lol

 

[jack casey]

This is after all an International Cub Cadet forum and comparing oil recommendations from late model commercial or industrial kohler engines is getting off topic and only adds to the confusion. What was the original question again? lol

I must disagree. A lone voice or two out there would say 'oil is oil. But on these pages there is more discussion about oil than any other subject so it must be of significance to lotsa Cubbers. My CC102 manual says SAE 30 detergent oil for the K241 engine, that's what I use. Of the 43,000+ engines produced by IH I imagine the manuals will vary on oil specs. Perhaps the question is 'What is the ONE oil suitable for every one of the 43,000?' Would it be 15w40 Syntec? Straight 15w40? What?
Cheers, Jack

 

[RAllison]

You know I said oil is oil once to my wife in the kitchen...OH BOY,it was on like Donkey Kong!!! I gotta lesson on corn,canola,vegetable and olive! I'd rather watch you guys talk about oil anytime!