Balance gears in 12 HP Kohlers ?

[kide]

Got a friend with a busted 12 HP Kohler in a newer (87-88) Wheel Horse. He sez that a "couple of little gears" came loose. (He also sez that the only damage he can see is a chip out of the bottom of the bore and a nick outta the rod.) The question - I thought only the larger Kohlers had the counter balance setup in them and without a model number I can't pull the right manual from the Kohler web site - anyone know, did Kohler put 'em in the later 12 HP singles ??

 

[wmiller]

Yes,some 12 hp Kohlers have balance gears. I am rebuilding the engine in my 126,that my dad bought new in 1970,he put a new "universal service engine" in it several years ago,It has/had balance gears, They are now in the trash can. The spec # for that engine is 61303C91(47504). Maybe those numbers will get you what you need,they worked to get parts for mine. I ohauled my 147 last year,left the bal gears out of it too,may vibrate a little more at idle,cant really tell any difference reved up.

 

[kide]

Thank you, Wayne (scared me for a minute - my brother-in-law is also a Wayne Miller..)..
I'll follow up with the guy - I told him that if it was balance gears, that he could eliminate them, chamfer the chip out of the bottom of the bore, then mike the crank and if OK, get a new rod, check the piston and rings etc etc..

Now I gotta check and see if the K301 crate motor that I put in the 129 in '95 has 'em (oooohhh noooooo!)

 

[gcoleman]

Kendell, they are easy to take out, only held on the shafts by cir clips, and you can leave the shafts they ride on in the engine, they won't hurt anything. I am going to leave them out in the engine of my 149 once the rebuild is complete.

 

[kide]

Glen - still not sure whether it's got 'em...Myron, Kraig, Charlie, Dennis - question - when did Kohler start putting the balance gears in the K-301's? My motor is one of the crate motor specials that Kohler made available every spring to Cub and Deere dealers. I bought mine in '95 - without pulling the pan off, is there any way of telling - I suspect its got 'em just because it's newer than the Wheel Horse mentioned below...

 

[gcoleman]

Only way to know is to look up the exploded view in the manual of the engine, depending on wether or not you have one.

 

[kide]

Ya know Glen, I was just about to post something smarmy (yes, I've got multiple Kohler manuals) about you restating the obvious, but I looked in the "kservice.pdf" and found the serial number break listed.. Thanks for reminding me to listen to the "young" as well as the "not so young"...

 

[gcoleman]

Thanks, I guess, just doin my job...

 

[kweaver]

Glen - Kendell and I (and a few others) have been around here since before the turn of the century.
We know what we need to know , know what others want to know ... it's just that we're so old we forget what we know !

 

[gcoleman]

Gotcha...

 

[kide]

Well, the serial Number on the K-301 is 2334306773 (purchased spring of '95), so it's got 'em and they're the new style, according to the manual. Myron, Kraig, Charlie, Dennis - next question - new style balance gears any better than old? Point here is that I've got no problems with the engine (only about 500 hours) and I've got no intention of pulling it apart unless the balance gears grenade in normal use.. I think it's probably time for a Cerma "technology update" and quit worrying..

 

[dfrisk]

KENDELL - Myron would be the Best person to determine if Your engine has balance gears because He can decode the spec numbers. When I rebuilt My 129 about 8-9 yrs ago I went as far as to call KOHLER and talk to an engineer to see if the gears could be left out. You CAN get the gears out without pulling the crankshaft but it's REALLY hard. If Your engine's dipstick runs into the crankcase on the front RIGHT corner of the top of the crankcase as opposed to the timing gear cover under the carb, or into the lower right front corner under the starter-generator then You can be about 90% assured Your engine doesn't have the gernade gears.... 'Cause that's where the gears live.
If it would make You feel better pulling the timing gear cover would be the easiest way to check....or maybe the fuel pump block-off plate.

 

[kide]

Dennis:
Thanks for the response.. I'm pretty sure it's got them and they are the "new" style (as shown in the manual pg. 12.4 ) versus the old style.. Just wonder whether we'll be apt to see a new vent in the block, if the engine is treated with normal care, before it's time for a teardown (which is when I'd pull 'em)..

 

[mbounds]

Denis, Kendall. I've been watching for a spec # but so far nada...

Myron B

 

[kide]

Myron.... (me)

...oops

Spec is 47504

 

[mbounds]

Hi Ken: Probably not what you wanted to hear but TC-157 sez that your engine has balance gears. Engines with that spec were last used in the 1x8/9 series..The QL series engines did not use balance gears with spec # 47622.

Myron B

 

[kide]

Thanks for spending the time confirming that, Myron! I know you must be busier than heck at this time of year... Anyone have a point of view on my second question?

"Myron, Kraig, Charlie, Dennis - next question - new style balance gears any better than old? Point here is that I've got no problems with the engine (only about 500 hours) and I've got no intention of pulling it apart unless the balance gears grenade in normal use.."... I was pretty sure I had 'em by this time, I was (and still am) looking for opinions (they're like belly buttons) whether the newer style (both styles are shown in the Kohler manual) balance gear assembly is any more reliable than the older style..

I guess bad is bad........

 

[kmcconaughey]

Kendell, I have no idea. I've never had one go in any of my engines. I bought a 149 for it's hydraulic lift parts and the K321's gears had already let go, that's about all I have for experience.

 

[mbounds]

Hmmmm....I wonder if it really matters which style balance gears you take out and do not put back in?

snicker

Myron B

 

[kide]

As I said, I don't want to take the $%^&*#@& thing apart, unless they're that much of a risk (I'd wait till it was re-ring time..). The justification for pulling the engine, pulling the crank, etc. just because it "might happen" isn't enough. What I originally gathered was that if they are used in high output situations on a regular basis (like pulling), or abused, they are a risk. I'll let ya know if I ever have a problem...
Thanks, Kraig - the 149 experience at least gives me something to think about.