Archive through September 19, 2013

[bjamison]

Good news! I went out this evening to run a wire from the battery on my 1650 to the coil and see if I had a bad switch, but last night I pulled the ignition switch to have another look-see at the terminals and wiring to it. Before I could do anything with the battery to coil wiring, I needed a reinstalled switch that could crank the engine in the first place.

I figured while I was re-wiring the switch (the connnector that normally plugs all wires into the switch has been long gone for some time - so attaching individual wires to the switch) I decided to cut the sheathing off the wiring harness so I could get at and for sure trace all wiring against my wiring diagram. So I slowly traced and reattached everything.

Cleared the mess, pulled the choke, turned the key - the engine fired on the first try. Runs smooth, smoke free and really quieter than my 109 or 126. The 122 is the quietest - but then again, it doesn't have a motor in it...

So here's where I've been with this tractor:

- Bought the tractor on Feb 2, 2012.
- Did a cradle mod, replaced the iso mounts.
- Added a Super Steer kit.
- Did a squeeze on the front axle clevis.
- Replaced aluminum oil pan with cast iron one.
- New oil pan gasket.
- Decarb'd the head, new head gasket.
- Added muffler crutch.
- Replaced driveshaft fan.
- New points, plug, condenser, swapped-in good coil.
- Added engine to chassis ground strap

And probably a few more things.

So now I've got a tractor together, though when I was fooling around with the engine, found it was a 14 hp - not a 16 hp engine, but found a very rebuildable K341AQS that will some day get a rebuild and install into this tractor.

I also picked up a 50C deck from a later model CCC tractor and think I can swap out the center pulley for one that fits the belt on this tractor.

Other things I need to do are:

- Wire-tie the wiring harness back together.
- Reattach the center hump cover
- Fix the front tires such that they don't leak down
- Find an IH emblem for the hood.
- Reattach the hood.
- Verify the PTO works.
- Replace the hytran fluid and filter

I'll likely use this tractor around the house this winter for a wood hauler and snow plow. Hopefully it can become a for real deal mowing machine/worker for next spring.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Next up - Chapter II of the 1650.

 

[aaytay]

Sounds like Charlie is having a 'coming out' party tomorrow...

 

[jbaker]

Man, I am not sure how to take that,,
Either we will be

or

so for now I have to

And to keep this page on topic, Is there any noticable advantage when the engine is working to have a LP over a standard head on IH cub cadets??

(in-case its the last page)

 

[csrussell]

David Schwandt, I looked at the wiring and it is held along the frame by three holders. Maybe it has something to do with the different models, 1250, 1450 and 1650.?

Tonight I had a couple minutes and took the top plate off the muffler box and it doesn't look like the motor fins had ever been cleaned, so out comes the motor for some cleaning.

 

[kide]

Jeff - not an ideal location for the plug for a gas(oline) fueled engine, that head is optimized for propane..

 

[dschwandt]

Cris: Here's another diference I have noted between these build dates is te routing of the PTO wire. The early ones seem to have it routed down the left side of the reame and the later ones w/the f/wall rout have it bundled there.

 

[dcmay]

I have a 1250 that doesn't want to charge.Is there a way to check the stator?I replaced the voltage regulator but didn't help.

 

[jchamberlin]

daniel c may: You can use an Ohm meter to check for catastrophic failure. Unplug the leads and you should read a very low resistance across the two terminals and infinite resistance from either lead to ground. If you find a high resistance between the leads, then the wire has burned itself in two; if you find a low resistance from either lead to ground, then the stator has grounded itself to the motor.

The third possibility (as far as the stator itself is concerned) is that two wires have fused together and cut out a large portion of the stator's winding. The only way to determine if that is the case is to compare the low reading to a printed specification or known good unit.

Finally, the magnets must still be mounted to the flywheel in order to induce a current in the stator; if the magnets have come loose you will not see full performance from the alternator, and if they are missing entirely, you will not see any performance at all.

Another way to check the output of the alternator is to disconnect the leads (or at least pull them back) and read the AC volt output from the alternator when running --you should see 30 to 40 volts AC with the motor running at full throttle.

Edit: Remove the plug to test with the Ohm meter; pull the plug back when testing with the Volt meter.

 

[dfrisk]

JEFF, GERRY - The plug location is probably debatable. Kohler moved the plug over the exh valve because they claimed it improved performance on both LP & gasoline fueled engines. They're both spark ignited carburated engines, only difference is LP gas has less BTU/gal but higher octane so can use more compression, and it vaporizes MUCH better than liquid gasoline. NOW, as to how much it improved performance, I really don't know, I've never seen a comparison or a statement that it improved performance so much. And the Hp ratings of the newer engines with the plug over the exh. valve were still the same as before, so I'd say not much, like in 1-2%. For comparison, the K361 OHV Kohler has the same bore & stroke as the K341 16 HP but the OHV engine is rated 18 HP, so that's a roughly 12-1/2% increase. But I wouldn't expect the LP head would make anywhere near that much difference.

Lots of pulling governing organizations allow pullers to replace the OEM heads with billet aluminum heads with the engine builder's own design of combustion chamber and spark plug location, so I'd assume (Yeah, I know what that stands for) that there is some performance to be gained by moving the plug. Maybe one of the pullers like Nic B could comment on that.

I know there was a discussion on another L&G forum a year or so ago about an article in FARM SHOW magazine where somebody put grooves across the surface of the combustion chamber on the head of a flat head engine, they all pointed to the spark plug on one end and spread out as they continued across the head surface over to the cylinder bore. These were little grooves, described as 1/8" wide and 1/16th inch deep, the idea was to create channels where the combustion flame could travel from the plug to the cylinder, and the article's author had some WILD claim of increased HP and reduced gas usage. Supposedly some rare flat head engine back in the 1930's or '40's used this idea. But even though I've never Officially LIVED in Missouri, I have visited that state many times, and like their state motto, "SHOW ME the DYNO sheets!". Seat of the pants impressions are NOT proof.

It's a sad thing to think about, but some day in the not too distant future, we'll ALL be installing imported OHV engines with electronic ignition & fuel injection, knock sensors, and probably catalytic converters on our CC's. Like EVERY small engine shop I called last spring looking for parts to rebuild my K241 told me, "Nobody rebuilds those old engines anymore", and when the last of the rebuild parts dry up we won't have a choice but to repower with a new more modern engine.

 

[jbaker]

Dennis thanks for the info,
so far we are still online

 

[bjamison]

Dennis F said, "It's a sad thing to think about, but some day in the not too distant future, we'll ALL be installing imported OHV engines with electronic ignition & fuel injection, knock sensors, and probably catalytic converters on our CC's. Like EVERY small engine shop I called last spring looking for parts to rebuild my K241 told me, "Nobody rebuilds those old engines anymore", and when the last of the rebuild parts dry up we won't have a choice but to repower with a new more modern engine."

Very true. Already happening with other color tractors. A popular swap with the Onan powered Wheelhorse tractors is a Honda engine - and kits are available. The later model Simplicity Sovereign type tractor I have has a Kohler Command in it. A new engine - which can still be bought, is a drop in replacement.

Changing from a Onan or a Kohler Command - the feedback I get is it is much better to replace the engine than rebuild. Much different animals compared to the single cylinder engines in the IHCC's.

To me the wrinkle with the IHCC's are the engine mounting and oil pan configurations. How do you wedge a Honda or other engine into a NF tractor or a 1x8/9 or QL series tractor? I'm sure anything is possible, but is it worth the hassle?

My thought (since I horde junk anyway - never sell or throw anything away, let the beneficiaries of the estate do that...) is to snag a few engines as they come available. One thing I have learned dealing with these old tractors is - if you find a tractor with a smoke free engine, you got something worth keeping. I'm planning some $$$'s for a couple of engine rebuilds, but am not above plucking the engine out of a tractor and parting out the rest - which is what I did with the engine transplant from the 122 to the 126.

On another note - quick question:

Differences between early QL tractors and late QL tractors:

- 1 inch spindles
- different steering wheel
- aluminum cast grill

Anything of note for other changes from early QL to late QL tractors?

 

[jclazar]

Well, we're not out of rebuild parts yet! I can guess the only major piece of the engine puzzle would be the crank. I don't fear simple, elementary shapes such as cylinder and circle would vanish resulting in a claim that a good Kohler K Series engine block would be better suited for a boat anchor. If we can send people to the moon, and soon Mars, I doubt we would loose the technology of a air cooled engine.

But, who's to say? Not me, no Sir! Why, I just had a K241 rebuilt. Knock on wood, I hope to treat it so as to last another 50 years. By then I'll be an old { 87 }, wrinkled up raisin with thoughts of a better place to be than on a seat of my IH Cub Cadet.

 

[dfrisk]

JOHN - Took me 18 yrs to put 1400 operating hours on the K241 I rebuilt back in 1985 for my #72. SON has that engine now in the 70. It got a fresh rebuild to +.010" O/S bore, and the crank ground .010" U/S for the first time. And with the way SON's using it it WILL last 50 yrs. He's only mowed 2-3 times with it, takes him 15-20 minutes to mow. And I put 25 hours on that K241 in one weekend about ten yrs ago.

Parts are a WHOLE lot higher priced now for these old engines that they used to be, think I had $150=$200 in the rebuild back in '85, but I didn't have the cylinder bored, just luightly honed, knurled the piston and new rings, and replaced the rod with an OEM sied rod. And it ran 1400 hours.

This spring I priced Kohler parts, piston was over $200, rod over $100, gasket kit almost $100, stellite exh valve was $80. Machine work was still $135, same as my last rebuild of a K321 8 yrs ago. Back then, piston was $145, stock rod was $60, gaskets were $50.

So, with parts prices going up so fast, the OEM will kill off the demand and stop making parts for these old engines.

So get them while you can!

 

[aaytay]

Dennis-
IMHO, the problem won't be engine parts, but more importantly finding someone to do the machine work to fit those new parts. Machine shops are drying up around here. Local NAPAs used to have a machine shop on site. Not many around here do anymore. I had a 14hp Kohler block bored .10-over about 2 years ago. It was over an hour drive to find a shop that would "FIT" the new piston to the overbore rather than just bore it out to .10 and call it good. (That's another arguement for another day) Anyway,that machine shop is now closed. The research would have to be done all over again if I had to have another block machined. The bottom line is that (in my opinion) China will continue to make us new Kohler parts if the US supply dries up, but GOOD LUCK finding someone to get the block in shape for the new parts!

BTW... Wasn't there supposed to be some big hoop-la around here today? (Looks around, sees nothing new, shrugs and walks out....)

 

[bbranstetter]

Just an update. Kohler engine oil filters DO have a check valve!! So intern I had no oil flow which I would have seen had I hooked up the oil pressure gauge that I bought for it.

Nobody to blame but me on that one.

Oh well, replace the rod and move on. Good new is that the motor started instantly and idled with no smoke or oil leaks so I should be good to go after replacing the rod......again.

 

[digger]

I've got a question.
How hot do you guys think the drive clutch on an Original gets, worse case scenario?

Art,

 

[dfrisk]

ART - After getting totally disgusted with two small engine shops within ten miles of my place, the last two times I needed blocks bored & stuff I drove 75 miles one-way to use the same shop up in FDL that Dave Kirk uses. I don't think they're going anywhere, at least I hope not, they're always busy.

The tools and expertise is out there to do this work, the price may go up, but then everything except my pay check is doing that anyhow.

When it gets to the point we have to start farming that work out to China, I hope I'm not around.

 

[aaytay]

Don-
That'll teach to to drive through the woods with a Burbon in one hand!

Charlie-
Hot enough to melt the paint off of the two outer clutch plates, which in turn heats up the drive shaft, cooking the grease out of the front throw-out arm bearing and front support bearing, which then smokes, catches fire, and melts the drive-belt causing a rubber fire who's flames lick the bottom of the 7hp Kohler's fuel tank, which then boils the gas out right into the fire turning the entire tractor into a giant fireball, in turn burning down the shed <strike>YOU</strike> someone parked it next to while they were looking inside for a couple of 9/16" box wrenches to adjust the belt tension.

Or...

Hot enough for you to post a picture of some sort of ugly Cub-Carnage.

 

[dtanner]

Home of the Plow Special

Art it was a good single malt lol and no I did not spill any

we are getting our 24' pool ready for winter. I like to get it covered before the leaves start falling. I did learn that lesson .I had a real mess one year. It is hot here today and I hope you all are have some seat time .

 

[dlouw]

Welcome to myself and Many, many thanks to Charlie and Kraig McConaughey! At last I can again access this forum and have many weeks' reading to catch up on.

For some reason my access was "Prohibited" for the past weeks and Kraig (the only contact email address I had) tried to help. You cannot begin to imagine how it felt to be without access.
At least now everything seems to be back to 'normal' again.

Thanks Charlie for all the work you and your team do to make this site possible.