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Archive through September 13, 2012

IH Cub Cadet Forum

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Frank C - almost on the wrong side of the border. How bout posting a pic of the 123 and those head bolts. I was thinking where the gas tank mounts, the head used studs and double nuts?
Harry, way over to the west:
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Looks like I've got both methods, here. I think from now on I'm going to go with a low boss head and studs under the tank. However, come to think of it, I don't think I've seen a head gasket blow on the rear of an engine.
Charlie gets ice in his bird bath, we get the promise of a 81* day. Life is good.
Sending some geese towards Don in Nova Scotia:
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I'll add my .02 on the WOT while mowing topic.
I agree that mowing should normally be done at WOT, but with these old tractors I think you should know the correct RPM of the engine while at WOT. You never know what the PO has done and it may rev up more that what it was designed for. Maybe a tach. from Kirk Engines would be best.
What do ya think?
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Shultzie
This little gem can be bought real cheap in China , I think around $9.00 and shipping. It uses a reflective strip that you would stick fast to any moving part like the PTo and I have found it to be great for setting idle and 3600 rpm wot. I have used it many time here on my Cubs.Nice to have in any Cub shop . I think a few guys bought it and now use it on there Cubs.

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I bought a 301 engine that had been rebuilt but had not been started. It had 321 flywheel and tin on it. I dis assembled it and checked it out. Then installed flywheel and tin from a 10hp on it and put it in a 104.Started it up and it ran great. Mowed the lawn and parked it. Next day started it and it ran great for about 3 minutes. Moved to wot to set r p m and it died and acted like it had no compression.So i figured stuck valve but by then it was normal and i restarted it. Went to 1/2 throttle and it ran great. Went to W O T and after about two minutes it backfired and died. Pulled breather and head and the exhaust valve had bent when it backfired, and welded to the head i found a short,old, rusty screw. Since i didn't remove the valves to check them, the screw had to be hung in the valve spring. Just something to look for when buying used parts.
 
This has been working for me. Reading taken on top (8 cyl) scale.
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Hmmm... running a bit high, aren't we?
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Neg to ground, Pos to points wire on coil.
Although this dwell/tach measures RPM, Dwell, and Voltage, I wouldn't think of calling it a multimeter.
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""My bad. However, I'm ready to compromise.Please give me this:
Mowing should be done at WOT. Other jobs such as whatever those other jobs may be can be done at less than WOT.
I'm having a hard time with the theory that lower RPM's means less heat over the engine.""

I'll buy you an "adult beverage" (or two) Frank while we test your theory! I've got the tractor and implements and the thermal camera.. you bring the tachometer and your enthusiasm.
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It is my opinion, and thermal testing has shown me that more rpms create more heat, not less. It does increase airflow also but, there is still alot more thermal activity to remove by running wide open.

So it is my opinion, to use only the rpm needed to get the job done. Not saying this is for everyone, just in my opinion. And I've rarely ever pushed it to full open except when tossin' snow.
 
HARRY - I'd suggest loosing the Vibra-tach and getting one of these, http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=21&prodid=252

Every engine I own has had idle & max RPM set with it. I got mine thru Amazon.com, seems like I paid $40-$50 but cheaper versions can be found. If you feel lucky, Harbor Freight has a Chinese import for less than $20 sometimes. Think Donny T, Charlie, and a couple others here have them. Works on ANYTHING that rotates, just stick a little 1/8th inch square piece of reflective tape on the part that rotates, point & shoot. My only suggestion is to pull the cheap imported batteries (two AA cells) out between uses, they tend to leak & corrode.

MATT - If your mowers have to run WFO to mow properly, I'd suggest sharpening your mower blades more frequently. I typically sharpen my blades every 2-3 mowings of my 2 acres.

Wasn't it Mike Frade who posted a couple days ago that his CC runs hotter WFO mowing than at less than wide open? I remember he took infrared thermal pic's a year ago. Granted the blower incorporated into the flywheel moves maximum air flow at maximum RPM, but your not considering the extra power required to run that fast the engine has to create, therefore produces more heat. As I've said dozens of times, running WFO is a "SAFE" recommendation, meaning the engine cooling system is moving the maximum amount of cooling air for ALL engine operating conditions up to and including maximum full load. Running the engine slower reduces air flow in a direct proportion to the RPM the engine operates at. Half throttle, half the air, one-third throttle, one third the air, etc. The key is to know your equipment well enough to know how big the load is your putting on the tractor. And for those mowing with a hydro tractor, it's too easy to increase mowing speed so mowing wide open is probably best. But this summer I've used a gear drive ALL year.

At times I do run wide open when mowing, depending entirely on the conditions, taller grass equals more RPM, more HP, better mowing job for the conditions. And since I'm mowing with only a 38 inch deck this year, I ALWAYS take a full width cut, and mow in 1st gear with the 72 because 2nd gear is too fast in my situation. But where the grass is short, or sparce, there's no need for maximum RPM, so I idle down some. Back when I used to blow snow with my CC, there were places I didn't want to blow snow 20-25 ft, so I idled down there too.

The way the air cooling system on the Kohler operates, no temp. regulation, it's very easy to "Over-Cool" the engine in winter. First winter I had my freshly rebuilt K241 in the 72 I moved a lot of snow that winter. The following spring I sent an oil sample in for oil analysis. Due to all the cold operating conditions, and the fact that even cleaning 3-4 driveways every snow fall, the oil was never getting up to temp to boil/vaporize out the excess gasoline from the choking to get the engine started, and the cold running, the OA came back with DANGEROUS high dissolved gasoline levels. Some day I'll do what Dave Kirk, Mike Frade, and maybe others have done and put a tach, an oil temp, head temp, and Exh temp gauge on the 72 so I can monitor temps in relation to RPM. But I can assure you the temps will definitely be load related more so RPM related. In the mean time I'll continue to use this, http://www.toolking.com/raytek-st25-autopro-infrared-temperature-gun?CAWELAID=844510711&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CJjtm4KDtbICFQGDnQod_UcAHg to monitor engine temps if I think something needs to be checked. I will caution people, the cheaper Raytech I had 20 yrs ago was NOT shielded well enough and didn't like checking the head temp on the K301 in my 129 one day. Cost me $50 plus shipping to CA to repair the thing I paid $70 for, but this new one has better shielding. But the "Noise" the Kohler ignition systems put out is really bad, so I don't recommend checking head or oil pan temp unless the engine is off.
 
OK, Mike! I'll drive down to Bangor and hop onto the first ship heading down the Penobscot for New Bedford. Maybe meet the Red October on its way upriver.
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Awww, Tom, I got outbid!
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""I'm curious how any of you guys that cut at less than WOT are happy with the quality of cut. I've noticed that even 200 RPM can make a HUGE difference in the quality of cut.

I also don't understand why some people are so averse to running the engine under load at full throttle; it's designed to be used that way, and it explicitly states in the manual that that is how the engine should be operated.""

Matt, (and others), my tractor cuts grass just fine and I'm happy with the quality. I just never saw the need for more rpm when the engine wasn't even "into the govenor" just to cut some grass. Then when I got my mitts on the thermal camera and could prove that more rpm creates more heat not less, it just confirmed my suspicions.

For me it's Y2K technology dis-proving last century "thinking".. Like I said earlier, it's not for everyone, and this is my opinion, just don't discount someone elses viewpoint because you may disagree is all I'm saying. The world isn't always flat!
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Ty for the part number Harry,I will check those an see what ones I can cross reference this weekend.The shaft size thats larger on the right side of the bearing is the locking collar which goes all the way through the bearing.If you look in the picture that shows the auger there is a hole on the auger where a bolt goes. Im thinking this is what holds the shaft into the auger ?

The CW-36 I have is in really good shape,I hate to get rid of it because it works so good.I remember as a lil girl id sit on grandpas lap an he an I would mow an blow snow. I was the lucky granddaughter who got it before he passed. He gave it to me since I mowed his yard for him the last few years he was alive.

I have a Cub Cadet IH 104 which is a 1969 model.Its a year older than I am...

Gerry,in that pic the bolt holds the sprocket on the shaft an on the sprocket there is a shear pin,which goes into the bracket which is welded on the shaft to the left of the bearing.I think it also is used as a stop for the sprocket too,but unsure ?

Ok so I have to ask,what does WOT mean ?

Ive also noticed the girls have painted their tractors pink an white...im so torn now on the color I want....do I go back original or go with pink...hmmmm
 
""OK, Mike! I'll drive down to Bangor and hop onto the first ship heading down the Penobscot for New Bedford. Maybe meet the Red October on its way upriver.""

LOVE to have you Frank!
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Not sure about the October vessel tho'... :cool:

And thanks for all the conversation on engine heat. I've been mulling it over on how to gather data and trying to decide if it would be advantageous to expose the cylinder to gather readings in addition to the cylinder head. But this would also change airflow....
 
Keith O., nice looking 1650! (Everyone else has been saying 1450 but your profile says you have a 1650
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) Is that your daughter? Looks like she has claimed that Cub and you may have to get another Cub for yourself.
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Dennis "DDay" WELCOME!
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""Wasn't it Mike Frade who posted a couple days ago that his CC runs hotter WFO mowing than at less than wide open? I remember he took infrared thermal pic's a year ago. Granted the blower incorporated into the flywheel moves maximum air flow at maximum RPM, but your not considering the extra power required to run that fast the engine has to create, therefore produces more heat. As I've said dozens of times, running WFO is a "SAFE" recommendation, meaning the engine cooling system is moving the maximum amount of cooling air for ALL engine operating conditions up to and including maximum full load. Running the engine slower reduces air flow in a direct proportion to the RPM the engine operates at. Half throttle, half the air, one-third throttle, one third the air, etc..""

I actually posted the thermal pictures here some 2 years ago! I'll re-post'em if I can find them when I get home.
The part not being said (in my mind anyway) is that your not simply increasing airflow. Your also increasing the heat generated by firing the cylinder more often so yes, it should be proportional to my way of thinking. So why create more heat to increase airflow for work that can be accomplished with less heat in the engine?

HMmmmm.. Denny and I actually agree on 2 topics! Cub Cadets and rpm control! LOL..
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Amy - without seeing it, and without the specific CPE that Harry's got, its just WAGs based on what can be seen in pics. If that's a cross bolt and you've got that out, there may be a burr in the hole preventing you from pulling the shaft out. Heat and rigging a puller........

BTW - WOT = Wide Open Throttle (don't ask what WFO stands for..). Great to hear the background on why you've got the Cub - I hope one of my three kids want mine - they're all in their 40's and were in their teens or early 20's when I got the 129, so they never used mine, but the oldest could on his place.. I'm sure Grandpa is just busting with pride whre he is ! He might have a little problem with Pink.......
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Out at my place my grass is thin and WOT is just not needed and as for the quality if it short it,s good for me, but then again I have been called a hillbilly more than once. Also my daughters do alot of the cutting and don't seem to like ruuning it that way.
 
Mike - I do think there's a good argument to be had for running close, if not at, the suggested RPM.... The first point is that the implements were designed for a working RPM (sorry, Dennis, but sharp blades turning slower don't cut as much, at least when we've got thick Michigan grass). The second thing is that not all the measured operating parameters increase in a linear fashion when RPM increases - fans in particular are weird in this respect. Third, a lightly loaded engine, especially at higher RPMs , putting energy into the flywheel, is (IMHO) putting less stress into the crank and rod, than a slow running engine that has to respond to the governor when the load picks up with "big bangs" (if you've ever really loaded your K motor down and lower RPM, you know you can hear the individual power pulses and that's maximum air and gas producing those "bangs". I don't think that's good for the motor.. but that's just an opinion from an old fart (who broke at least one Cushman motor by lugging it up a hill)..
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Thanks everyone for the meaning of WOT ;)
I think I have a feeling what WFO means,but I wont say it .
Im sure grandpa is thinking ohhh my at the thought of going pink with it. I still have some time to think on the colors right now though. I do like the idea of painting it pink,I think it would look really good
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I am going to try to heat up the shaft in the auger an see if it will come out that way.If it wont come out ill just cut the weld and clean up the shaft then remove the bearing.
I called Cub Cadet today an they recommend upgrading to a new style bearing. They did say I could order the same part an they said I could put a zirc fitting so the bearings could be greased.I think I will just upgrade the bearings since this is the part that is hardest to fix.
I figured this would be educational here to say the least,seems it was for many including me
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Ty for all the help...Ill keep ya all posted as I piece it back together an take pics after its done
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Jeff, nothing that he could afford so he bought the 226. Nice shape w/ 18 hp onan and a blower. Alas, he crossed to the dark side......... He did look at a nice 149 tho and he's already saying he might want another tractor in the future so he doesn't have to keep switching attachments so there is still hope. He'll get my 109 someday anyway.......
 

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