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Archive through June 27, 2010
- Thread starter gsmyth
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Help Support IH Cub Cadet Forum:
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- Allen Schumacher
Wayne, someone mentioned harness wear on a 147. I have rewired 1/2 to 3/4 of my 147 for broken insulation/wires. You can get a new harness but they're $100. Tough to get around the engine too with wires. And yes, access is awful on a narrow frame too.
Thanks for the comments.
I forgot the 147 was narrow, that wont do because my blade/deck is WF. So its essentially down to the 149 and 1450, and I have one of each for sale within a few hours of me for about $600 and 700. Only problem is, now I see the tillers sometimes cost more than the tractors! I think I would prefer left hand on the wheel, but I also think I could adjust to using my right...and manual pto is a plus since anything electric in my hands is dangerous....so 149 is probably what I'll go for, and its the cheaper..but I wont rule out a 1450 if a deal comes along
I forgot the 147 was narrow, that wont do because my blade/deck is WF. So its essentially down to the 149 and 1450, and I have one of each for sale within a few hours of me for about $600 and 700. Only problem is, now I see the tillers sometimes cost more than the tractors! I think I would prefer left hand on the wheel, but I also think I could adjust to using my right...and manual pto is a plus since anything electric in my hands is dangerous....so 149 is probably what I'll go for, and its the cheaper..but I wont rule out a 1450 if a deal comes along
After all the discussion on oil and cylinder head temperatures on Kohler K-series engines, I decided to conduct an experiment (I see Matt did a similar test – nice job!). I found some spark plug thermocoupled gaskets I had stashed, along with my digital thermometer.
The grass was in need of mowing so I set up the test to monitor spark plug temperatures during the cut. Here are the specifics of the test:
Ambient temperature – 82 deg F
Fuel used – 91 octane, non-reformulated gasoline
Engine – Kohler K301 AQS with modifications
Compression ratio – 7.45:1 (stock – 6.5:1)
Spark plug – Autolite MP 4316 Platinum
The thermocouple was installed and engine started and warmed up for several minutes to check for a temperature rise. The digital thermometer was rubber banded to a Pilots Pal knee board and strapped to my leg:
I had planned to carry the camera along and photograph the display, but this proved too cumbersome (and it looked dorky as hell).
Prior to mowing, the governed no-load engine rpm was verified to be at 3600 with mower deck engaged (as shown on my instrument panel mounted tachometer). The grass was fairly thick and high and I made several laps while watching the temperatures. All total the engine ran for about 10 minutes before the thermocouple wire broke, ending the test. The highest temperature I saw was 509 F, considerably higher than what I thought it would be. This was during the maximum load points where rpm dropped to around 3500. I know the engine is not running too lean, but I pulled the spark plug to do a visual check. The insulator appears a charcoal grey, indicating high speed mixture is just about right.
This plug temperature is higher that I thought, by about 80 degrees F. My engine is running 1 full value higher compression ratio and this could contribute some. Do Quietline tractors with AQS engines run hotter than older, uncovered engines do? I don’t think this is the case but I will repeat the experiment on my 107 just to verify. I also found an oil temperature thermocouple but will have to make up a special oil plug to adapt it.
In closing, I found the picture of the oil comparison test we did at Tecumseh, running straight 30 wt mineral oil endurance without an oil change. Only make-up oil was added during the test. The engine ran full load, 3600 rpm for slightly over 100 hours whereupon the connecting rod broke due to crankpin bearing seizure. Upon teardown, the cause of failure was immediately apparent – the oil had turned into tar. The sister engine with Mobil 1 synthetic was still running happily.
The grass was in need of mowing so I set up the test to monitor spark plug temperatures during the cut. Here are the specifics of the test:
Ambient temperature – 82 deg F
Fuel used – 91 octane, non-reformulated gasoline
Engine – Kohler K301 AQS with modifications
Compression ratio – 7.45:1 (stock – 6.5:1)
Spark plug – Autolite MP 4316 Platinum
The thermocouple was installed and engine started and warmed up for several minutes to check for a temperature rise. The digital thermometer was rubber banded to a Pilots Pal knee board and strapped to my leg:
I had planned to carry the camera along and photograph the display, but this proved too cumbersome (and it looked dorky as hell).
Prior to mowing, the governed no-load engine rpm was verified to be at 3600 with mower deck engaged (as shown on my instrument panel mounted tachometer). The grass was fairly thick and high and I made several laps while watching the temperatures. All total the engine ran for about 10 minutes before the thermocouple wire broke, ending the test. The highest temperature I saw was 509 F, considerably higher than what I thought it would be. This was during the maximum load points where rpm dropped to around 3500. I know the engine is not running too lean, but I pulled the spark plug to do a visual check. The insulator appears a charcoal grey, indicating high speed mixture is just about right.
This plug temperature is higher that I thought, by about 80 degrees F. My engine is running 1 full value higher compression ratio and this could contribute some. Do Quietline tractors with AQS engines run hotter than older, uncovered engines do? I don’t think this is the case but I will repeat the experiment on my 107 just to verify. I also found an oil temperature thermocouple but will have to make up a special oil plug to adapt it.
In closing, I found the picture of the oil comparison test we did at Tecumseh, running straight 30 wt mineral oil endurance without an oil change. Only make-up oil was added during the test. The engine ran full load, 3600 rpm for slightly over 100 hours whereupon the connecting rod broke due to crankpin bearing seizure. Upon teardown, the cause of failure was immediately apparent – the oil had turned into tar. The sister engine with Mobil 1 synthetic was still running happily.
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- Allen Schumacher
Roy N., didn't see KentucyKen around this afternoon. But if u ask nice maybe he would e-mail you a drawing so ur brother could make a pin extractor for you. Might just be easier to get the special punches for spirol pins. Look online in Sears tool section. Think they have sets for $25.
David K.,
A good test and good pictures!
Too bad the TC wire broke after only 10 minutes.
You mentioned that you thought the recorded temp of 509*F was about 80*F higher than you expected but that it may have be attributed to the one full value higher compression ratio. I'd agree with the higher compression being a contributing factor to higher heat generation.
You also had mentioned you were considering performing a similar test with your older, non-covered 107. Is your 107 also equipped with a 7.45:1 CR, 12-HP Kohler as well?
If you do the 107 test, I hope you try to get some measurements during the cool down period as well as run time. I look forward to seeing how your results compare to Matt G. results.
The picture of the 100+ hour test with 30wt. dino oil is obvious visual evidence WHY we need to follow the Owner's manual directions to change the motor oil after 25 hours, and not just add oil as needed!
Ryan Wilke
A good test and good pictures!
Too bad the TC wire broke after only 10 minutes.
You mentioned that you thought the recorded temp of 509*F was about 80*F higher than you expected but that it may have be attributed to the one full value higher compression ratio. I'd agree with the higher compression being a contributing factor to higher heat generation.
You also had mentioned you were considering performing a similar test with your older, non-covered 107. Is your 107 also equipped with a 7.45:1 CR, 12-HP Kohler as well?
If you do the 107 test, I hope you try to get some measurements during the cool down period as well as run time. I look forward to seeing how your results compare to Matt G. results.
The picture of the 100+ hour test with 30wt. dino oil is obvious visual evidence WHY we need to follow the Owner's manual directions to change the motor oil after 25 hours, and not just add oil as needed!
Ryan Wilke
mgonitzke
Well-known member
Ryan-
You've got the wrong Matt...I can't afford all that fun diagnostic equipment...
You've got the wrong Matt...I can't afford all that fun diagnostic equipment...
hydroharry
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- Jul 22, 2007
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- 4,468
- displayname
- Harry Bursell
Dave K - hey great info. Keep it coming. Really always enjoy all your input. May just help change my mind on the gauges. I keep thinking about installing one of your dash mounted tachs as well.
Wayne S - just a couple more things on the 149vs1450. The early 149s used an odd cast iron clamp set up on the speed control lever. If the cast iron cracks (and sometimes it does) I believe the only parts available are to upgrade to the 1450 style. The pic that Jerry H posted for the lift arms (on this page) shows the clamp very well and the screw thru it. Never could understand why IH thought you could use cast iron with a screw as a clamp.
Another issue with the 149 is the hydro lift lever linkage. It uses a roll pin chain link if I recall, which is sometimes a problem, and the 1450 is upgraded to avoid these. Not sure but I think the parts available here are only the 1450 upgrade kit. When you look at the 149 see if the lift lever is completely vertical. If not, it may have this problem. Also, if the lever has more than about 1 inch play, it may have a failed roll pin, or other issue.
One more issue in my view, although somewhat minor, is the hood hinge. The 149 used a small piano style and not very rugged, which is often cracked from the opening action, and pressure of the hood hanging on it. The 1450 uses a hinge substantially stronger, which I recommend as a replacement, rather than the stock 149 style. I'll attach an old pic of the 1450 style hinge which is what I used on my 169.
I should add, I may be partial to 1450's even tho the only tractor I currently have is a 169. My very 1st cub was a 1450 and I still miss it. Had it all my time in CT. I actually prefer the electric PTO vs. the manual. In 14years I only ever replaced the field coil which was quite easy, AND I bought the tractor used, 10 years old. The xx8/9 might have a brake on the PTO which is a little more complicated as well.
Hope these details help.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and they all have thier +/-'s)
Wayne S - just a couple more things on the 149vs1450. The early 149s used an odd cast iron clamp set up on the speed control lever. If the cast iron cracks (and sometimes it does) I believe the only parts available are to upgrade to the 1450 style. The pic that Jerry H posted for the lift arms (on this page) shows the clamp very well and the screw thru it. Never could understand why IH thought you could use cast iron with a screw as a clamp.
Another issue with the 149 is the hydro lift lever linkage. It uses a roll pin chain link if I recall, which is sometimes a problem, and the 1450 is upgraded to avoid these. Not sure but I think the parts available here are only the 1450 upgrade kit. When you look at the 149 see if the lift lever is completely vertical. If not, it may have this problem. Also, if the lever has more than about 1 inch play, it may have a failed roll pin, or other issue.
One more issue in my view, although somewhat minor, is the hood hinge. The 149 used a small piano style and not very rugged, which is often cracked from the opening action, and pressure of the hood hanging on it. The 1450 uses a hinge substantially stronger, which I recommend as a replacement, rather than the stock 149 style. I'll attach an old pic of the 1450 style hinge which is what I used on my 169.
I should add, I may be partial to 1450's even tho the only tractor I currently have is a 169. My very 1st cub was a 1450 and I still miss it. Had it all my time in CT. I actually prefer the electric PTO vs. the manual. In 14years I only ever replaced the field coil which was quite easy, AND I bought the tractor used, 10 years old. The xx8/9 might have a brake on the PTO which is a little more complicated as well.
Hope these details help.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and they all have thier +/-'s)
tdaugherty
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- Aug 12, 2009
- Messages
- 122
- displayname
- Tim Daugherty
Hey y'all
Got a question concerning my 124. I just fixed the charging system, and put in a fresh DieHard. It now runs. drives and charges good. However when i ran it today, i noticed the wire coming up from the points to the coil, the terminal on the points wire hooked the coil was sparking a bit. Is this just a bad terminal, loose one, or dirty? I just got his thing fixed, so i hope it's somethin easy. I need some help! Thanks.
Got a question concerning my 124. I just fixed the charging system, and put in a fresh DieHard. It now runs. drives and charges good. However when i ran it today, i noticed the wire coming up from the points to the coil, the terminal on the points wire hooked the coil was sparking a bit. Is this just a bad terminal, loose one, or dirty? I just got his thing fixed, so i hope it's somethin easy. I need some help! Thanks.
mgonitzke
Well-known member
129, yes. A 127 doesn't have a hood hinge.
Since the test mow with the 122 was a success ( it worked ), I started tearing down the 125 to rebuild the engine.
I followed the service manual except I removed the gas tank and carb before I removed the engine since I was the entire engine removal team. I lifted the engine myself and carried it over to my bench to start the teardown.
As I removed the sheet metal, I didn't like what I found.
That fine grass / crud had basically filled the cooling fins around the curved sheet metal panel. That couldn't have helped at all and was probably very much a contributing factor in the sudden oil consumption.
Here's what it looked like after I removed the head ( after snapping off one of the bolts right below the valve in the pic
)
Oh, to add in the fun, I get to drill out set screws in one of the holes on the PTO. Seems the previous owner used a hacked up set screw on the top. The 1/8" allen wrench didn't fit right from the get go.
I followed the service manual except I removed the gas tank and carb before I removed the engine since I was the entire engine removal team. I lifted the engine myself and carried it over to my bench to start the teardown.
As I removed the sheet metal, I didn't like what I found.
That fine grass / crud had basically filled the cooling fins around the curved sheet metal panel. That couldn't have helped at all and was probably very much a contributing factor in the sudden oil consumption.
Here's what it looked like after I removed the head ( after snapping off one of the bolts right below the valve in the pic
Oh, to add in the fun, I get to drill out set screws in one of the holes on the PTO. Seems the previous owner used a hacked up set screw on the top. The 1/8" allen wrench didn't fit right from the get go.
mgonitzke
Well-known member
Jeff-
You can try using a wire-feed welder to build up some material on that stud, and then grab that with a Vise-Grip and turn it out. I've removed a number of broken bolts that way.
You can try using a wire-feed welder to build up some material on that stud, and then grab that with a Vise-Grip and turn it out. I've removed a number of broken bolts that way.
tdaugherty
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- Aug 12, 2009
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- 122
- displayname
- Tim Daugherty
The Original lives! I found a used coil in better shape, and replaced the condenser and plug. A little smoky at first, but the ole' Kohler cleared up nice! Runs, and drives good. It's amazing what 10mins of tinkering around will do! I just left it in front of my pole barn last night, and came out this morning and tinkered with it, and finally, i woke er up, for the first time in almost 50 years. Its a 1960 model. Now its on to paint, decals, and some better tires.
tdaugherty
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- 122
- displayname
- Tim Daugherty
Jeff,
Nice 125. I always like to see an old Cadet revived. It pays off after all the work, when the motor rolls on strong. My Original is an example of that. It's not pretty, but it runs good for now.
Nice 125. I always like to see an old Cadet revived. It pays off after all the work, when the motor rolls on strong. My Original is an example of that. It's not pretty, but it runs good for now.
mgwin
Well-known member
Jeff,
Let me guess... is the bolt closest to the exhaust port the one that broke?
Tim,
I am happy for you.
However, I am willing to bet it hasn't been 50 years since it ran. 50 years ago it was probably NEW! (2010 - 50years = 1960) Hey, if someone gave me an "O" I would be too excited to correctly count the years too!
Let me guess... is the bolt closest to the exhaust port the one that broke?
Tim,
I am happy for you.
