Archive through February 16, 2014

[bjamison]

Very interesting comments on ag tires. Here are a few of my uninteresting comments...

I think of tires in two camps - narrow and wide. With them are trade-offs - contact patch vs weight per patch area or PSI. So the narrower the tire, the more weight is put to the to the lug to dig into the ground. Whereas the wider the tire, the weight is distributed over a larger area and with that, less mashing of the tire to the ground and therefore more floatation. So if have a given amount of weight - usually due to $$$ limits and say 50# per tire is my limit, then maybe a narrower tire gives me more traction.

Floatation is also a potential concern with the wider tire. IMHO floatation equals less traction. If I'm on soggy ground, very good. If I'm trying to drive the lug into the ground for traction, floatation ain't good.

Plowing (moldboard and snow) - I'm thinking a narrower tire will fit in the furrow better than a wide tire, but with snow, the narrower tire might cut down through the snow better than a wider tire which might tend to float and with it spin-out more.

I like it that the wider tire sticks out past the fender more (as I mentioned in an earlier post) because a lot of times when I'm climbing on the tractor sometimes I put my foot on the tire opposite to steady myself as I get my buttox into the originial 6 pad IH seat. But with a 2 inch spacer, I can get the narrower tire out where the wider tire was on the first place.

The Firestone 23 deg tires look great and work great too. I've got a set of them, a set of Carlisle Power Trac ag tires, a set of Goodyear Terra ag tires and a set of Hi-run Super Lug ag tires.

My first set of ag tires is/was the Firestones and they were expensive. My tractor has 50 lbs of weight on each wheel, the tires are 8.5 wide and I describe the tractor as able to go like a jeep. No real need for a diff lock. As I acquired the other tires (and the Goodyear Terra Tires I have are old, dry/hard and cracked) I have found they all do a great job with a bit of weight added.

Not only were Firestones expensive, but they have not held-up very well. They are badly cracked and leak air like crazy. I have tubed them, but where I mow/work the tractor, I encounter thorns and breaking the bead to fix a tube is a pain.

Another observation is tires with a flat surface vs one with a bit of a curve - where the lugs follow the curve around the edge of the tire. My Goodyear Terra Tires do this and to some extent the Hi-Run Super Lug tires I have do the same and I think this gives this style tire a two fold advantage. First, it narrows the contact patch - increasing the PSI of the contact patch, but second is when moldboard plowing, the tire face doesn't lay flat in the furrow or out of it. With the lugs partly made around the corner of the tire, it seems to me there is more potential to put more lug width to the ground in and out of the furrow.

Soooo - what to do. Not sure I'd buy anymore of the Firestones based on my experience of longevity and cost. I find them in my use no better than any of the other tires I've got. As Momma cracks down on my $$$ spending on tractors and parts, I tend to look for a better bang for the $$$ and I'm not sure the Firestones are it.

Cub Cadet content: I see a set of ags on my 1650 in the future and I'm thinking about moving what's left of my 23 degree Firestones to the 126. I think it would make a purty tractor even purttier....

 

[lpalma]

this one was from the original owner.

 

[sblunier]

They were advertized from day one with high back on 7/9.....if the line didn't get the message, it wouldnt be the first time....

I need to recheck my sales comparisons lit.....

 

[sblunier]

"IH Sales Know How Product Guide"

Compared QL to 82 series when 82 series were introduced. 1650 vs. 782 specifically lists and shows high back seat for 782 and 982.

682 shows low back. I do think the low back is more durable...they last forever.

The pics in the sales literature were pre-production, so it doesn't surprise me that the seat options weren't correct in the literature shots.....

Did the early ones leave with low backs, maybe, but that wasn't IH's intent.

 

[dfrisk]

STEVE B. - Yes, been to many pulls, the Henry County Fair up in Cambridge, IL used to have the importance of an NTPA pull. Sat thru all the classes there till well past Midnite many times. Packed clay horse racing track so hard you couldn't push a screw driver into it more than 3-4 inches, needed a 2 pound ball peen hammer to get it six inches into the track.

Saw 45 degree lugs out-pull 23 degree lugs many times, depends on how sharp the leading edges were.

Local guy who took pulling seriously got a real nice present one summer from his wife, a brand new set of Firestone 23 degree 30.5'sX32's. Wife comes out to the shop one afternoon and see's him grinding the lugs down so they were stiffer and sharper and "Bit" into the track better. He narrowly escaped a messy divorce that afternoon.

For a while the 23 degree Firestone "Forestry Special" tires were top dog in pulling, they had thick steel mesh belts under the lugs to prevent punctures, also supported the lugs better, placed a flatter foot print on the track regardless of inflation pressure, weighed a little more but it was rear end weight which the tractors needed anyhow. Today's dedicated pulling tires have very shallow lugs to control the amount of bit the tires get. If they hooked up really well, every tractor that pulled would destroy the final drives.

I was looking over Firestone's website a week or so ago, they even make a Zero degree lug tire, supposed to give equal traction forward or reverse, but no garden tractor sizes made.

Whatever anyone does with a tractor, large or small, Firestone has already tested that condition and application with their "Machine" and "Mean Machine", and the 23 degree lug works best. Like many things in mechanical assemblies, what works best is a compromise, but 95+% of the time the Firestone 23 degree works best, otherwise they would have chosen a different angle. All the other major ag tractor tire co's tried to copy the Firestone as best they could without patent infringment, BFG went to 30 degree, GY had their Zig-Zag lugs, then when something called a "Sound-Guard Cab" started shaking itself apart, they created a "long bar/short bar" tire that reduced the shaking of that cab. Hated that tire ever since I heard that direct for the Horse's Mouth from a GY Corp. salesman!


15-16 yrs ago a salesman for a BIG job shop machine shop that did a fair amount of work for the company I was working for, plus a TON of work for CAT attended a "Supplier Day" for Cat at one of their test sites. They had a completely groomed test track, tested slippage, pounds of pull, fuel use, speed, and dozens of other critical factors on rubber tracked tractors, steel tracked tractors, rubber tired tractors, duals, super singles, you name it. There were red, yellow, blue, gray, even green tractors there. They had pressure sensors three feet in the ground to measure compaction from the passing tractors under load. What ever condition and use you put your CC to, somebody has tested that situation.

And as far as spelling out the model designations, I guess I try to keep my posts short even though they're long, so as to NOT be "Windy". Since IH only changed the engine size and decal on many variations of CC's, I thought people would understand that a 109, 129, 149, & 169 was the same as a "1X9". Just trying to save "Band Width" here.

 

[lpalma]

Steve.
I never had a 982 so you are prolly right about the high back seats
Not saying the seats on the 782 you show are not correct, but something funny is going on....

 

[dfrisk]

BILL J. - on your thoughts on tires, some of your assumptions are correct, others are wrong.

"Flotation" and increased grip can happen at the same time. Case in point, Dad made a set of clamp-on duals for my #1 snow mover. I could pull his 24 ft peg tooth harrow pretty well in 4th gear, around 6-1/2 MPH with single tires. But the tire tracks were so deep I couldn't harrow them out. That's compaction! With the duals, I had to run in 3rd gear, 5 MPH, but my actual travel speed was about the same, tracks were so shallow I could harrow them out. Tractor engine actually pulled down more when pulling hills with the duals than the single tires because I was approaching Zero % slippage. With the singles I was close to 20% all the time and on hills way over that.

Then on ag tractors, we have soil compaction, and actually on garden tractors we do too. And compaction can go far deeper into the ground than we think. Depends on how wet the ground is, and how heavy the tractor or implement is. But even with wide tires or duals, under the right conditions, not unusual to compact the ground 5-6 FEET down.

And as for your comment about a narrow tire fitting a moldboard plow furrow better and providing more traction, I think you're wrong there. I've plowed thousands of acres with a tractor with 18.4X34 tires in a 14 inch wide furrow, also 15.5" wide tire. They all pulled just fine. The 18.4's left a tiny little depression in the last furrow of the previous round but as long as I could plow fast enough, the first bottom on the next pass filled that depression.

As long as the tractor I was plowing with was new enough, and green enough, I could engage the Diff lock and both rear tires had equal traction. If the tractor was old and red, or old & green, the land wheel, even with a dual on would slip long before the furrow wheel would. So no problem plowing with a tractor with wider tires than the furrow. That furrow wheel isn't going to slip until WAY past when the land wheel will have spun out.

Far as tire contour, what the tire looks like 90% of the way around, on the frt, back, top, makes NO difference. It's where the tire contacts the ground that makes the difference. The "contact patch" is everything. The inflation pressure, loading, meaning the weight the tire carries, determines the contact patch. And as draft load increases, more weight is transfered off the frt of the tractor onto the rear tires, so to maintain a good contact patch, more PSI is required. With too low of PSI, the center of wide tires can raise up off the ground, making two narrow contact patches along the edges, which will result in more slippage. That can even happen on narrower tires, but typically, the tire will break traction & spin out before the center of the tread raises, and the sidewall of the tire will buckle.

I won't go into the dynamics of "Power Hop", I'm not even sure you can get a garden tractor to power hop.

Far as what works best for plowing snow, As much weight on the drive tires as you can get, and tire chains! Width of the drive tires really makes little difference, but narrower seems better than wider, mostly because you can use a narrower blade or blower.

Like Steve B says, every situation is different, it's all about compromise.

And your pair of Firestone's must be REEAALLLY old. I check inflation PSI on both my sets once in spring, seldom check them again till the following spring. The 23-8.50's are 14 yrs old this spring, the 26-12.00's 10 or 11 yrs old. And since I mow with both of those tractors, the static loaded radius of the rear tires REALLY effects how the mower performs, the rear tires determine how level the mower mows side-to-side, and frt to back. One flat frt tire just drops the frt of the deck a little, has no effect on side-to-side. So if a tire gets low, I notice it right away. It might be time to put new inner tubes in your old pair of Firestone's. If the tubes didn't leak, the tires wouldn't go down.

 

[jbaker]

You guys need to move to the sand box to a ag tire thread.
That way we can follow it easier..and it wont piss off charlie

 

[sblunier]

My 2 bottom plow clears a 10" furrow on the last pass, and my 26x12x12 tires drop right in and pull.......over the last 15 years I've had every combo from 8.50 to 26x12x12 and have settled on fluid loaded (tubes) 26" rubber on my working tractors.....max weight and IMHO max GT traction.

I loved my 8.50 Stones, but they didn't pull the 12" plow like the 26" rubber does. With lower hp you don't notice as much, but start putting 16hp or more in front of a big plow and you want meat on the ground.

 

[digger]

Jeff B.
We're good man.
Tires and Cubs, It's one in the same to me.