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Archive through April 13, 2012
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hydroharry
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- Harry Bursell
Dan T - glad to see/hear you're alive and well. I was beginning to wonder. You mentioned your batteries are now damp making me think it started to rain, but the asphalt looks dry in your pic. Thanks for the advice on the pin punches. I am on the look out for a couple sets since my son has a few tractors as well.
Do have a question for you - since you certainly have a large fleet of these units, which one has the most comfortable seat? And why do you prefer it?
Calvin - I jumped right by your post on the rearends while I was writing my earlier dissertation. I think by now it's pretty clear the one in your pic appears to be an internal brake 3-speed.
With regard to your question on whether internal or external brakes are better - each has advantages and disadvantages and it's hard to answer which may be better. I happen to prefer the internal wet brake style since I believe they actual grab and hold better, and they are easier to adjust which is hardly ever necessary. You can also install IH wheel weights on the inside of the wheel since there are no calipers in the way. The internal wet brake is more difficult to replace if it ever fails. Also, I believe if you park on a slope and lock the brake it could eventually still roll away since the brake is fluid based and the fluid could run away from the brake. I've never tried this to see if it happens but in theory it would seem it could. Others may prefer the external disc since it's somewhat easy to replace the pads, if necessary. A bigger question is why did IH keep going back and forth between these 2 styles of brakes. Never got an answer on that one.
Bill J - you only mention removing the carbon on the head. Make sure you remove it from the top of the piston as well. I believe the service manual mentions using a block of wood for a scraper. There are also some plastic beveled edge tools that work well. I only suggest being careful. It's easy to scar the head or the piston so don't use metal tools. Use a rag to wipe things off frequently. Keep the piston at full TDC to help keep fine carbon off the cylinder wall where the rings meet it. Best to make sure your head is true, or nice and flat when you're done. Sand paper wrapped around a flat piece of glass works well as a base to make sure. Overall doing the de-carboning isn't a difficult task, but plan some time to get all your tin work off, and pay close attention so you know how to reinstall everything.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (keep'm clean and rust free makes it easier to perform service and running better)
Do have a question for you - since you certainly have a large fleet of these units, which one has the most comfortable seat? And why do you prefer it?
Calvin - I jumped right by your post on the rearends while I was writing my earlier dissertation. I think by now it's pretty clear the one in your pic appears to be an internal brake 3-speed.
With regard to your question on whether internal or external brakes are better - each has advantages and disadvantages and it's hard to answer which may be better. I happen to prefer the internal wet brake style since I believe they actual grab and hold better, and they are easier to adjust which is hardly ever necessary. You can also install IH wheel weights on the inside of the wheel since there are no calipers in the way. The internal wet brake is more difficult to replace if it ever fails. Also, I believe if you park on a slope and lock the brake it could eventually still roll away since the brake is fluid based and the fluid could run away from the brake. I've never tried this to see if it happens but in theory it would seem it could. Others may prefer the external disc since it's somewhat easy to replace the pads, if necessary. A bigger question is why did IH keep going back and forth between these 2 styles of brakes. Never got an answer on that one.
Bill J - you only mention removing the carbon on the head. Make sure you remove it from the top of the piston as well. I believe the service manual mentions using a block of wood for a scraper. There are also some plastic beveled edge tools that work well. I only suggest being careful. It's easy to scar the head or the piston so don't use metal tools. Use a rag to wipe things off frequently. Keep the piston at full TDC to help keep fine carbon off the cylinder wall where the rings meet it. Best to make sure your head is true, or nice and flat when you're done. Sand paper wrapped around a flat piece of glass works well as a base to make sure. Overall doing the de-carboning isn't a difficult task, but plan some time to get all your tin work off, and pay close attention so you know how to reinstall everything.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (keep'm clean and rust free makes it easier to perform service and running better)
Harry, What part of an internal brake is hydraulic? It's a disc brake run "wet".
You do such a good job of explaining stuff then I go and leave a line, I can do better. It is a disc brake. at the very front, bottom, of the case. It is mechanical, and the wet part is just it's location, always submerged in oil. I'm trying.
You do such a good job of explaining stuff then I go and leave a line, I can do better. It is a disc brake. at the very front, bottom, of the case. It is mechanical, and the wet part is just it's location, always submerged in oil. I'm trying.
hydroharry
Well-known member
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- Jul 22, 2007
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- Harry Bursell
Dave - I didn't actually say it was hydraulic but may have implied that in my description. I realize there is a metal disc and sometype of pad, but since I've never looked into it, and others have mentioned it could lose brake holding ability on a slope over time I thought I should mention it. I'm open to discussion of how it actually works if that can't happen.
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (anything wet can be slippery)
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (anything wet can be slippery)
Internal brakes.
Gear version:
Hydro version:
Gear version:
Hydro version:
Harry, It's a disc brake, the only trouble with it on slopes is it's hooked to the bottom shaft in the transmission. Which is hooked to the wheels but through the differencial. if you get on a hill trying to stop to much wieght or if the grass is a little wet the "differencial action can allow one wheel to roll forward freely while the other wheel spins backwards.
Thank you Kraig
Thank you Kraig
mgwin
Well-known member
Calvin,
The rear in my cub weighed 163 lbs.
The rear in my cub weighed 163 lbs.
HARRY - I don't have any "Roll Pin Punches" either. I used to have to remove roll pins frequently and I guess I got good at removing them with just a straight punch. If they mushroom over I just dress them up slightly with a Dremel.
On a Hydro tractor the hardened dowel pin on the frt coupler you can't use them, the dowel pin is solid. The roll pin on the back of the driveshaft where the rag joint goes I've never had to remove or replace a pin. The hydro reduces or absorbs the shock & hammering of the engine on the driveshaft.
On GD tractors the rear roll pin on the driveshaft, front pin on the coupler attaching the drive shaft to the input pinion fails frequently on 10 HP & larger tractors. I've had several fail. NEVER had a problem with a K161/181-powered tractor. Normally it's because the constant hammering of the engine elongates the hole on the back of the driveshaft. Think I've broke three in my #72 since I installed the K241 & K321 years ago. I tried to get MWSC to make me a special longer drive coupler with two roll pins but when I talked to Julian he didn't quite understand what I wanted. The input pinion is hardened carbon steel, it won't elongate, the OEM driveshaft is only 1018 steel, it will, the clutch disks are both pinned to the shaft and share the load, the rear hole in the driveshaft is the ONLY other place where one pin drives the whole tractor. Once the roll pin breaks it's REALLY hard to remove the sections of the pin. Best just to pull the whole driveshaft out and work on the pieces on the bench. YES, the whole clutch/driveshaft can be removed by just sliding the engine forward in the frame.
I put a MWSC 4140 hardened steel driveshaft in the 72 when I installed the K321 several years ago, after only 150 hours it's too soon to tell if it will last as long as I think it should. I was going to make a driveshaft from "STRESSPROOF" steel, it's severely reduced cold drawn 1144 Steel, very comparable in strength & hardness to the 4140 pre-hard MWSC uses.
On a Hydro tractor the hardened dowel pin on the frt coupler you can't use them, the dowel pin is solid. The roll pin on the back of the driveshaft where the rag joint goes I've never had to remove or replace a pin. The hydro reduces or absorbs the shock & hammering of the engine on the driveshaft.
On GD tractors the rear roll pin on the driveshaft, front pin on the coupler attaching the drive shaft to the input pinion fails frequently on 10 HP & larger tractors. I've had several fail. NEVER had a problem with a K161/181-powered tractor. Normally it's because the constant hammering of the engine elongates the hole on the back of the driveshaft. Think I've broke three in my #72 since I installed the K241 & K321 years ago. I tried to get MWSC to make me a special longer drive coupler with two roll pins but when I talked to Julian he didn't quite understand what I wanted. The input pinion is hardened carbon steel, it won't elongate, the OEM driveshaft is only 1018 steel, it will, the clutch disks are both pinned to the shaft and share the load, the rear hole in the driveshaft is the ONLY other place where one pin drives the whole tractor. Once the roll pin breaks it's REALLY hard to remove the sections of the pin. Best just to pull the whole driveshaft out and work on the pieces on the bench. YES, the whole clutch/driveshaft can be removed by just sliding the engine forward in the frame.
I put a MWSC 4140 hardened steel driveshaft in the 72 when I installed the K321 several years ago, after only 150 hours it's too soon to tell if it will last as long as I think it should. I was going to make a driveshaft from "STRESSPROOF" steel, it's severely reduced cold drawn 1144 Steel, very comparable in strength & hardness to the 4140 pre-hard MWSC uses.
hydroharry
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 4,468
- displayname
- Harry Bursell
Dave and Kraig - thanks. Now I have a better understanding. It's surprising those 2 little pads drowned in fluid can stop that big thing so well, especially since the external version uses 4 larger pads. Makes me wonder even more why IH kept going back and forth between the 2 styles.
Dennis F - sounds like you're a believer in spring double roll pins. Thanks for the additional info. I thought on a GD wife frame you could get the clutch assembly out without removing the engine - but you had to take both roll pins out of the rear coupler and slide it forward (not exactly sure of the rear set up for GD tho).
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and Hydros stop better)
Dennis F - sounds like you're a believer in spring double roll pins. Thanks for the additional info. I thought on a GD wife frame you could get the clutch assembly out without removing the engine - but you had to take both roll pins out of the rear coupler and slide it forward (not exactly sure of the rear set up for GD tho).
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and Hydros stop better)
My 122 has the internal brake. I went into it 2 summers ago when it froze stuck. Once the transmission was out of the tractor it was easy to work on.I can't really attest to the quality of the new brake pucks from cub as I have adjusted them 4 times since they were put in, the material on the old IH ones was a lot nicer . We have a lot of hills here and it is verry annoying trying to stop with a trailer and the wheels just spin in opposit directions. External brakes are one of the items on my modifications list.
HARRY - I've never been around a WF GD. I would think getting the clutch plates, friction disc, & clutch lever thru the maze inside the frame would be difficult removing the clutch without moving the engine forward.
An oil wetted brake is a really great brake, just like a wet clutch in a motorcycle. Part of the reason the internal brake works so well is because it has the gear multiplication of the ring/pinion gear to multiply it's force. But as Lucas says, the differential action can cause one wheel braking.
I've only ever had two Hydro's a 129 & 982, both had the individual rear disc brakes on each wheel, the 982 has dual pedal control too. Frankly, having had similar brake controls on ALL the full size farm tractors I've run, I really don't use that feature as much as one would think. Even on the full size tractors, 99+% of the time, even when doing road work in high gear you normally only hit one brake pedal. The manuals ALL say to lock the pedals together when using road gear, but that ASSUMES the pedals are adjusted so both brakes apply at the same point. Yep, THAT happens on about One out of a million tractors!
An oil wetted brake is a really great brake, just like a wet clutch in a motorcycle. Part of the reason the internal brake works so well is because it has the gear multiplication of the ring/pinion gear to multiply it's force. But as Lucas says, the differential action can cause one wheel braking.
I've only ever had two Hydro's a 129 & 982, both had the individual rear disc brakes on each wheel, the 982 has dual pedal control too. Frankly, having had similar brake controls on ALL the full size farm tractors I've run, I really don't use that feature as much as one would think. Even on the full size tractors, 99+% of the time, even when doing road work in high gear you normally only hit one brake pedal. The manuals ALL say to lock the pedals together when using road gear, but that ASSUMES the pedals are adjusted so both brakes apply at the same point. Yep, THAT happens on about One out of a million tractors!
Excuse me for being tardy on this but I was just catching up on my reading. Tim Arthurs problem on Mon the 9th sounds like a broken compression release spring. I had the same problem with my 125. After the tractor sits for awhile the little flapper drops down but if you want to start and stop the engine right away it won't happen.
I was just paid a visit from the ole cork gasket demon. Thinkin about trying to get through the season, but at 20 bucks a gallon for hytran not sure thats a good idea. Is hytran the only way to go? Anyone had any luck with any type of stop leak?
hydroharry
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
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- 4,468
- displayname
- Harry Bursell
Chad - the cork gasket demon should only leave a "mark your spot" notice. Your message sounds like your getting something major. I actually think $20/gal on HyTran is a good price ($5/qt). You can't even hardly get motor oil for that price any more. As for some type of stop leak, I think you'd be playing with fire and could possibly ruin your Sundstrand Hydro pump. I actually don't even like to use permatex on the new cork gasket (or what ever the new material is now) since I believe the Service manual even indicates not to use anything. Lets see what some experts on here might add about a stop leak. (And by the way, you can remove the rearend, turn it up 90degrees, and change the gasket without having to change the fluid).
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and many many many still mark their spots)
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (and many many many still mark their spots)
- Joined
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- Binder 1650
Hydro Harry - I don't want to stir the great roll pin punch desert-a-tion...
but I'd like to contribute one item of info from time to time and so here is a link to youtube showing a roll pin punch in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4_k8OvjwAY
Hope this helps someone
but I'd like to contribute one item of info from time to time and so here is a link to youtube showing a roll pin punch in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4_k8OvjwAY
Hope this helps someone
Harry, sometimes it is a mark your spot kinda leak, sometimes its a good bit more after a few days. I got the rear all cleaned up and that looks like the source. I assume a failing gasket will worsen over time. I think ill put some fresh oil in and see what happens. As far as filters are concerned what would you recommend my 682 currently has a napa filter installed not sure of the number off hand.
ok guys i have a quiestion, i am rebuilding a k241 with a shallow pan, so i got a rod for a k241 but it came for a deep pan, what i am wondering is if i can just cut the extra tail off or if i should get the right rod coming. its just the cap that needs to be diffrent.
