2084 Super Garden Tractor won't stay running/gas vanished!

[gary noblit]

Taylor, on a positive note.You know many things that are not the problem.What's left? fuel lines, replace them it's not a big deal.tank and valves need to be blown out with air or run pipe cleaners thru valve if not sure and last is check tank cap vent to be sure there are no vacuum issues. You didn't say if it started up again after it sat a few minutes...that would be a huge clue

 

[taylorbirkey]

Taylor, on a positive note.You know many things that are not the problem.What's left? fuel lines, replace them it's not a big deal.tank and valves need to be blown out with air or run pipe cleaners thru valve if not sure and last is check tank cap vent to be sure there are no vacuum issues. You didn't say if it started up again after it sat a few minutes...that would be a huge clue

Appreciate the encouragement Gary! You're right. And by the end of this the entire fuel system will be ship shape! Tomorrow I will test start again. Plan to drain/clean the tank and will be prepared to replace some of the lines. I guess I'll have to jack it up to work underneath and get at the tank...

 

[tkhoffman]

When all is working, go back and get rid of that insulation displacement connector you used to tap into the solenoid line. They are totally unreliable, long term.

 

[taylorbirkey]

When all is working, go back and get rid of that insulation displacement connector you used to tap into the solenoid line. They are totally unreliable, long term.

Indeed not. Electrical is not my strong suit ... what’s the best way to tap? There are so many different ways ...

 

[gary noblit]

Taylor,If tank fill is behind seat you might have to unbolt body to get at fuel line.I would try blowing backward thru fuel line first. There a couple bolts under foot platforms and near(or part of seat mount).You won't have to remove body just lift it up.If you have a crack in line it might be sucking air (experience speaking) I can't remember all the different mounts and never worked on a 2084... Put on new clear fuel filter and you will see bubbles if it's sucking air from pump to tank....most importantly be methodical and when your done it should run fine and you may not even know which part made the difference....good luck...

 

[lpalma]

No need to remove the fender pan unless you want to clean the tank. So drain all the gas out of the tank then remove a rear tire one at a time, it helps to tip the rear lower so any water and crap will come out when you remove the shutoff and bung. Then clean out the the shutoffs, replace the bungs and fuel lines. Repeat on the other side.
If you want to remove the fender pan just to see what is under it, it would be a good time to clean up all the debris and such around the rear and pump. Do you smell gas back there at all when it is not running?
The likely culprit would be the fuel sending unit rubber bushing.
Have fun and keep us posted on your progress.

 

[tkhoffman]

Indeed not. Electrical is not my strong suit ... what’s the best way to tap? There are so many different ways ...

Soldering the wires is most reliable, especially with the weather and vibration a tractor sees. Wiring not your strong suit so I assume you do not have any HeatShrink insulation... OK.. When unclipping the connector you will see it stripped the insulation a bit. Take a single edged razor and do the same thing about 1/2" away from the first. Then slice the insulation (only) from strip to strip and remove the 1/2 long insulation from the copper. Now strip 1/2" at the end of you add-on wire. Twist your add on around solenoid wire... Solder. Not a fan of that liquid, paint on insulation so just use electrical tape. Pull it right as you wrap the wire so it almost stretches as you wrap.

 

[mgonitzke]

what’s the best way to tap? There are so many different ways ...

I would have gotten one of the terminals for larger gauge wire and put the ends of both wires that need to be spliced into one crimped terminal, rather than trying to scab one on in the middle. I now realize you may have taken my schematic more literally than I had intended...

Soldering the wires is most reliable, especially with the weather and vibration a tractor sees.

Believe it or not, a properly made crimped terminal connection is better than a soldered connection in a high vibration environment. The soldered ones tend to crack and break off immediately adjacent to the solder joint. BTDT, bought the proper multi-function crimper and have had zero issues since.

 

[taylorbirkey]

Put on new clear fuel filter and you will see bubbles if it's sucking air from pump to tank....most importantly be methodical and when your done it should run fine and you may not even know which part made the difference....good luck...

Have fun and keep us posted on your progress.

I now realize you may have taken my schematic more literally than I had intended...

Thanks for the insight everyone. I have yet another update. This Kohler CH20 drama is really turning into quite the fiasco. So ... this tractor was so dirty I decided to remove the seat/fender to clean the fuel tank and replace all the fuel lines. It went great! Tank wasn’t too dirty but had some debris. Got it super clean and reinstalled so the fuel system is in GREAT shape now. New Facet 40177 electric pump works great, good pressure, confirmed there is good delivery into the Keihin carb.

BUT fuel must not be the issue because it’s still not running. I worked on it a bunch today with my dad and we are confident it isn’t a fuel or spark issue. So WHAT is the problem?!?! We realized the engine controls assembly (choke lever, throttle lever, governor) wasn’t moving freely enough and proceeded to clean and lubricate it. The governor BARELY moves but we aren’t sure that’s the issue. Right now, the engine will start and run but ONLY when the starter is engaged. The second the starter goes off/key returns to the ON position, it shuts down.

Any ideas what that could mean? Somehow the engine only wants to run when the starter is on...

 

[jkoenig]

Well then it sounds like a possible wiring issue at the ignition switch. Check from one to the other end of the wires on the start and run positions of the ignition switch. Lookup a wiring diagram, and follow your actual wires to make sure they are all in good condition, and terminated at the correct destinations.

 

[gary noblit]

Taylor,If it runs with starter engaged that's a good sign.. ch20's make their elec for spark system from flywheel magnet. If you unplug the connector harness going to engine you will isolate the switch and the "kill" wire.Jump the starter post directly with pos. from battery.Engine should crank AND run if it has good spark and fuel.It can't run long because of elec fuel pump not working.You also need a jumper wire from pos. to solenoid valve on carb or it won't run.....the real kicker is you can't shut it off but just unhook jumper to solenoid and it will stop or at idle full choke.......So if all this works,engine runs, you have a bad ignition switch or a shorted kill wire...The kill wire is plugged into the bottom of coil around flywheel......Removing shroud gives access..Unhook kill,plug harness in and try it with switch .If it runs then your issue is probably the kill wire.Mice damage a lot of these.If it doesn't stay running then ignition switch is bad.Be sure to get the exact replacement.Mfg do a lot of different hook ups with swtiches so a 6 post doesn't neccessarily mean it's wired the same .Whew,did you get all that? Hope I didn't leave anything out....

 

[taylorbirkey]

Thank you Gary! Great insight here. Your suggestions are making me think about the massive electrical short I experienced the first time I mowed with this tractor. I was finishing the back lawn, driving up a relatively steep grade when BAM sparks flew everywhere and it died. I got it turned perpendicular to the hill and stopped, then saw the negative terminal had completely melted!

I realized the entire battery was loose in the engine bay (not strapped down) and slid backward toward the dash while I was driving up the hill. The positive terminal post/clamp touched something metal (I think part of steering tilt assembly) and created the short. I was able to refab the negative clamp and finish the mow, but I'm wondering now if that short could have messed up other parts of the electrical system, like this ignition/kill switch issue I might have? The tractor hasn't been the same since that short happened...

Jump the starter post directly with pos. from battery. Engine should crank AND run if it has good spark and fuel. It can't run long because of elec fuel pump not working.

So ... I disconnect the harness and then hook up a jumper wire on starter and touch other end to positive post on battery until it starts running. Seems easy enough! Does the gauge of jumper wire matter much? The jumpers I have are maybe ... 18 gauge I think? I also have regular jumper cables....

You also need a jumper wire from pos. to solenoid valve on carb or it won't run.....the real kicker is you can't shut it off but just unhook jumper to solenoid and it will stop or at idle full choke...

So what you're saying here is that if I want to get it to run w/o ignition switch I also need to jump the carb solenoid, and leave it connected as long as I want it to run? Then when I want to shut off engine, I disconnect the jumper? I'm assuming that w/o the electric fuel pump running, the engine will only run for a few moments anyway?

So if all this works, engine runs, you have a bad ignition switch or a shorted kill wire...The kill wire is plugged into the bottom of coil around flywheel...

Is part #19 in the image below the kill wire you are talking about?

Removing shroud gives access..Unhook kill,plug harness in and try it with switch .If it runs then your issue is probably the kill wire.Mice damage a lot of these.If it doesn't stay running then ignition switch is bad.Be sure to get the exact replacement.Mfg do a lot of different hook ups with swtiches so a 6 post doesn't neccessarily mean it's wired the same .Whew,did you get all that? Hope I didn't leave anything out....

Thanks again. Still trying to piece this all together!

 

[lpalma]

This ground wire looks bad.

 

[taylorbirkey]

This ground wire looks bad.

Indeed. Do you think it might specifically be affecting this startup issue? I can certainly replace ground wires...

 

[lpalma]

I do believe that is the main ground for most of the electrical items except the mag kill.
Here is a wiring diagram.

 

[gary noblit]

Taylor, I do believe the root of your problem comes from the shorted battery post.That would have overloaded the system and very likely burned the inside of your main ign. switch.So again..hook a jumper to your elec fuel pump to fill carb,then unhook, maybe 2 mins. any size wire will work.I have several 3 ft with alligator clamps....same with solenoid 14/16 ,these are not high amp draw....jumper from battery to starter use a jumper cable.Hook to starter post them hold against batt post.It only needs to be there long enough to start engine......The kill wire is on bottom of coil with typical slide connector....reminder.if it is the switch ,replace with correct for the model...CC specialties probably has them. Then you should do a serious look at ALL your wiringsome may be melted....I can hear run from here !!

 

[gary noblit]

Taylor ,I forgot ,if starter has separate solenoid to activate ,you also need to jump that solenoid post with pos. long enough to crank engine....the dia. you sent does not show kill wire but it's on bottom of coil...

 

[taylorbirkey]

Taylor ,I forgot ,if starter has separate solenoid to activate ,you also need to jump that solenoid post with pos. long enough to crank engine....the dia. you sent does not show kill wire but it's on bottom of coil...

Thanks Gary! I finally got a photo of my ignition coil. Is the kill switch the blue wire with red connector?

 

[lpalma]

No the yellow wire is, that is the starter solenoid that the blue wire is attached to.
Here is a easy to read wiring diagram. I suggest you check for a blown fuse.

 

[gary noblit]

Taylor, that is not ignition coil.That is starter and solenoid...The red connector is where I said you have to jump a positive to make starter engage.The larger red cable is the post you jump from battery with pos. because you will have switch unhooked.....