Those &%$*! Roll Pins

[CraigClickner]

I just need to vent about how INCREDIBLY much I hate roll pins! It seems like every time I encounter one, from the steering column on my '70 Charger to the...well...seemingly EVERYTHING on my Cub Cadet 104, they are firmly stuck in place, necessitating the use of the old "drill and tap" removal method. This would not be huge deal if it weren't for the fact that this particular pin is on the coupling of the driveshaft and trans, which gives me precious little room to work and the engineers at IH back in the sixties, in all their wisdom, made it so you HAD to uncouple the driveshaft to remove the transaxle because, otherwise, the driveshaft is essentially captured in the frame.

Anyway, this has resulted in thrown tools and few extremely creative streams of expletives. I have said things about the CC engineers that probably made their grandkids cry.

Anyway, thank you for giving me a place to vent...back to my roll pins!

 

[mgonitzke]

Do you have the correct pin punch with the little nub on the end? If not, get one. Soak the pin in PB Blaster, Kroil, etc. before trying to budge the pin, and either drive it out opposite the way it went in (so you aren't trying to force the peened over end through the coupling) or grind one end flush with the coupling first.

I have never, ever had to drill out a roll pin or spirol pin. Seems like you might be doing something wrong if you have to every time you touch one.

 

[CraigClickner]

How can you tell which way it went in? That may be what I'm doing wrong. Incidentally, I do have a set of pin punches with the little nub.

I think a big part of the problem I'm having is that it's really hard to reach. I use a forklift to pull the tractor vertical by the front axle and make sure I have good light, I've used the PB blaster, but part of the problem is accessibility. I'll keep trying. Thank you.

 

[mgonitzke]

There is a bit of a formed chamfer on both ends of the pin, but the end that has been hit with a punch is usually peened over, in which case you'd want to drive it out from the other side.

Something else that helps is using a brass drift rod to get it moving until it is flush with the coupler, then switch to the pin punch to drive it out. If you start with the pin punch, you will almost certainly mushroom or peen over the end of the pin, even if it starts moving right away.

 

[spndncash]

Hi Craig,
I am sympathetic to your problem - because I am a little lazy and the only thing I can hit with a hammer is my thumb... I machined a bit for my air chisel to push the roll pin to almost flush with the shaft, then finish the job as Matt suggested with a punch -usually it moves pretty easy by the time it is flush

 

[Ron Armbruster]

I don't really remember why but at one time I remember welding a cut off roll pin punch to a c clamp and a socket to push a pin. Don't know what happened to that tool I just remember making it for some application specific job.

 

[dsarow]

I just replaced that solid pin behind,on my K-301 that starts the drive line process.I believe it's 1/4.Its surrounded by that pulley assembly thing,hard to get a swing at it.I have a "C" that I pryed the little wobbly end off.That leaves a nub that starts the extraction. I use a small socket on the other end for clearance.This clamp also works on the spirol pins as the little nub fits in the pin.I've never been a fan of or had good luck at smacking pins in cramped locations.

 

[loren wilaby]

Do you have the correct pin punch with the little nub on the end? If not, get one. Soak the pin in PB Blaster, Kroil, etc. before trying to budge the pin, and either drive it out opposite the way it went in (so you aren't trying to force the peened over end through the coupling) or grind one end flush with the coupling first.

I have never, ever had to drill out a roll pin or spirol pin. Seems like you might be doing something wrong if you have to every time you touch one.

i use a air chisel with a ground pin punch one zap and then finish driving it out

 

[CraigClickner]

dsarow, that is my issue. It's really tough to get a good angle in that location with my big mitts.

I'll try the C clamp method. That seems to be the most promising alternative method and I some short black pipe stubs I can use in place of a socket.

My goal is just to get the pin moving. After that, it should be an easy extraction. I can probably weld the pipe stub to the clamp and just have an alternative tool in my arsenal if I encounter this issue again.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

 

[Paul Young]

get 3feet of 1" cold rolled shaft and drill a hole in the end the same diameter as your little short punch. try not too hit to hard, the weight of the shaft may bend the pin punch. that will extend your reach into weird arias they put roll pins. John Deere has bent pins that you can use when a roll pin or a rolled up pin falls out but I do not what size they come in. The hole must be straight through the shaft and collar . the collar cannot be slotted .the bent pin straightens out and it don't move. I think I may have used them on a disc gang shaft and a slotted nut, 1 1/4" shaft. come to think it may have been 1/4" pin x 2"long. its good to know that John Deere has a large assortment of hardware that you can't imagine , standard. and metric . You may find something there you can't find anywhere else.

 

[HickoryCub]

Is there anything wrong with using a Grade-8 bolt with locking nuts in place of roll pins, assuming there is clearance for the bolt head and nuts?? I have done this and nothing self-destructed. If the bolt is loose because of wear in either the shaft or the coupling, I will usually find a slightly larger size bolt and bore both the shaft and coupler to fit. You can often find a metric bolt that is "slightly" larger than most any size english bolt.

 

[mgonitzke]

Is there anything wrong with using a Grade-8 bolt with locking nuts in place of roll pins, assuming there is clearance for the bolt head and nuts?? I have done this and nothing self-destructed. If the bolt is loose because of wear in either the shaft or the coupling, I will usually find a slightly larger size bolt and bore both the shaft and coupler to fit. You can often find a metric bolt that is "slightly" larger than most any size english bolt.

The factory used the coiled spring pins, AKA "spirol" pins because they are strong and fill the hole, yet can also flex as the engine's torque twists the frame and slightly misaligns everything.

If you get a bolt to be a tight fit in the hole, it won't stay that way as things flex and move, and it will wear, and you end up in the same place, especially if you have threads in bearing in the coupler. Hardware store bolts are almost always slightly undersize as to easily fit into a hole drilled to the nominal diameter of the fastener, and they are also not particularly round or straight.

Long-term, it will trash the driveshaft, couplings, and input shaft of the transmission. The tractor pullers get away with this for a few minutes of run time a year. Do this on a worker and you will be sorry. I had a 1512 years ago someone did this to and ran quite awhile. The entire driveline was completely trashed. Every hole was badly worn oblong. That was an expensive mess to fix.

So, short answer is no, don't do this. Yes, people have. That doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[Dan Page]

Usually for me if I try to drive out a roll pin it bends or flares making even more difficult. I have found two methods that work best for me. One cut the pin off even with the shaft or whatever it goes through making it flush so it cannot expand and I have taken an old torx screwdriver and cut it off just behind the bit end. This makes a hardened shaft that is the same size and most of the pins on the cub cadet. If that is not an option I have taken a 1/4 drive socket that just fits over the pin which stops it from expanding and helps keep it centered so if you are trying to drive the pin out on an angle it doesn't glance off. Then simply put an appropriate length 1/4 drive extension on the socket and go at it. Extensions again are hardened so they drive well. Any cheap socket can be use as it is only helping you stay centered and the pin from bending over. Usually once you get it started you have it made. I have also cut some sockets off to shorten them if they bottom out against the shaft or pulley. Hope that helps.


On another note the worst clip you can ever deal with is the automotive horse shoe clip. It was used on cars from the 60's to into the 90's. It primary use was to hold window regulator handles on. They were recessed and you had a special tool that slide behind the handle in a forked shape that pushed the clip off. They are spring steel and if you weren't careful and fully paying attention you would hear twang and it was never to be seen again. Trust me you can look for hours and never find them inside a clean shop with a concrete floor.

 

[Ron Armbruster]

I think that's what my dad called a Jesus clip. The moment that you lost the clip came "Jesus!"

 

[CraigClickner]

On another note the worst clip you can ever deal with is the automotive horse shoe clip. It was used on cars from the 60's to into the 90's. It primary use was to hold window regulator handles on. They were recessed and you had a special tool that slide behind the handle in a forked shape that pushed the clip off. They are spring steel and if you weren't careful and fully paying attention you would hear twang and it was never to be seen again. Trust me you can look for hours and never find them inside a clean shop with a concrete floor.

I can tell you from first hand experience that 2004 Corvettes had them on the seat recline handle...and yes, they are absolutely impossible to find on a concrete floor. I had to lay a shop light on the floor to try to find the shadow it cast.

FYI. The best way to remove those is to hear a flat blade screwdriver and bend the tip of the blade 90 degrees and use that as a hook.

 

[Dan Page]

Could be Ron but the word I usually used started with an F@#$ sake.

Yes craig they were used there as well on many vehicles but it is rare to find a vehicle with manual windows any more. I have the tool and removed many of them. The foreign cars Hyundai, Honda and Kia had the exact same clip however it was recessed up under the handle so I took another tool and modified it by bending the ears up and back down into a step shape. Wrap a rag around it when you do it and rarely will you lose one.

 

[John DeBree]

If I were going to use a bolt, I'd go the other way, and use a cheap, soft one. That's what they use on 3 pt attachments like my wood chipper. If it jams, they shear easily without damaging the surrounding parts. I keep a pack of them in my on-tractor tool box.

 

[mgonitzke]

If I were going to use a bolt, I'd go the other way, and use a cheap, soft one. That's what they use on 3 pt attachments like my wood chipper. If it jams, they shear easily without damaging the surrounding parts. I keep a pack of them in my on-tractor tool box.

This will still ruin everything, for the same reasons I stated above.

 

[jdrong]

Learned my lesson years ago. Don't use a bolt. Fix it right.

 

[justinpittman]

I just removed a bolt+nut from the hub that sits behind the engine and connects to the driveshaft, and the pin holes are worn. The bolt was loose and just rattled in the pin hole. Poor choice by previous owner.