Original, and I want to use it.

[Imnaykid]

Greetings everyone and thanks.
I have my Grandfathers original #9539 sitting outside. It doesn't run and shop space is tight. I am now using a 21" walk behind mower to mow my 2 acres and it is tough on a mid 60's guy. The machine has a motor (K161S) issue and I don't know the problem. When the problem occurred my father had the machine and rather then fix it he bought a new Cub Cadet. I now have the machine and want to use it. Took it to a dealer, he had it for a week and called me to come and get it he wasn't interested. Called another dealer who said buy a replacement machine and sell the original. Third dealer was only interested in selling me a machine. I have been given the names of several guys who fix machines as a sideline. Only one showed up and said he will get the parts and let me know, it has been two years, I don't think he is coming back. Other three guy on the phone never came over to look at it.
I am not looking for a parade piece but a working machine. Am I dreaming? Any ideas? Anyone think they can get it going for me? Or is it truly scrap?

 

[digger]

Greetings everyone and thanks.
I have my Grandfathers original #9539 sitting outside. It doesn't run and shop space is tight. I am now using a 21" walk behind mower to mow my 2 acres and it is tough on a mid 60's guy. The machine has a motor (K161S) issue and I don't know the problem. When the problem occurred my father had the machine and rather then fix it he bought a new Cub Cadet. I now have the machine and want to use it. Took it to a dealer, he had it for a week and called me to come and get it he wasn't interested. Called another dealer who said buy a replacement machine and sell the original. Third dealer was only interested in selling me a machine. I have been given the names of several guys who fix machines as a sideline. Only one showed up and said he will get the parts and let me know, it has been two years, I don't think he is coming back. Other three guy on the phone never came over to look at it.
I am not looking for a parade piece but a working machine. Am I dreaming? Any ideas? Anyone think they can get it going for me? Or is it truly scrap?

There's many guys in Illinois that do work for people. I'll email a few and see how busy they are. I do know that the real good ones are at least a year or two out the last I heard.

 

[Ozzzy66]

What are the symptoms of your problem? I have an original I am currently using to tow a trail mower to cut the rougher sections of my property. If wasn’t running when I got it and had a know bad bearing on the deck. After multiple backfires and fires from excess fuel I found the intake valve was sticking open. If you can give these guys the symptoms of your problem they can help you narrow down what to check. The originals are truly simple machines to work on and the K engines seem to still have a lot of support available.

 

[awoloch]

Who are the really good ones that can restore early Cubs like the Original, 70, or 100?

 

[Imnaykid]

Thanks, It is a motor problem. Does not run, does not turn over. Froze up. I think it needs the motor rebuilt. So do I need a Cub Cadet guy or a Kohler guy?

 

[dschwandt]

Most early cub guys are kohler guys
Do you want a full blown restoration or just get it up and running again?
Where are you in IL in relation to Dubuque, IA?

 

[Imnaykid]

The motor (K161S) is the issue and I suppose the deck needs attention. I think my father had the motor worked on in the 1970's. It has been garage kept until last fall when I needed the room in the shop. It is now outside under a tarp.
The dealer who had it for a week took parts off, that is why it looks the way it does in the photos. The purple paint in the photos is from my brother who as a young kid decided to paint it and could only find a can of purple spray paint in my fathers (construction company) shop.
I would like the machine to run, at least cut the 2 acres and pull the small trailer behind it. Looks are not important unless there is some reason to pretty it up while the work is going on. If the motor has to come off and that would be a good time to paint the frame, OK. If the deck needs to come completely apart and that's a good time to paint, OK. Still, I do not need a parade machine. It never had fenders, wheel covers or lights. My father was fat and broke to factory seat and the seat on it I got for free. The choke cable has never worked but it is easy to lean over the steering wheel to reach the choke.
We are 50 miles west of Lake Michigan and 50 miles south of the Wisconsin. About 160 miles from Dubuque, a nice ride on U.S 20.

 

[RayF]

Love the snow tires...!

 

[Ozzzy66]

Thanks, It is a motor problem. Does not run, does not turn over. Froze up. I think it needs the motor rebuilt. So do I need a Cub Cadet guy or a Kohler guy?

Kohler guy for the engine, K161 were used on a lot of mowers and equipment. Have you pulled the spark plug or drained the oil to check the conditions? If it is the rings frozen to the cylinder wall keeping it from turning over penetrating oil or transmission fluid may free them up. Pull the spark plug and fill the cylinder with whatever you choose to use. It also could be something with the drive belt or deck belt keeping it from turning over if something is stuck downstream.

 

[dschwandt]

Could be simple and a quick fix ….
or....
Could be opening a real can of worms.
Try the penetrating oil in the plug hole and report back.
That's the first thing I would try short of pulling the head.
You will more than likely need a carb kit, points and condeser as well.
Maybe a fuel tank flush and clean.
Take a look inside the tank w/a pen light.

 

[Imnaykid]

Thanks everyone! Wow.
Pulled spark plug, sprayed in penetrating oil and let it sit. Still would not move. So I loosened the belt to the alternator(?). The alternator turned hard but did turn. Still could not turn motor by hand. The belt to the mower deck was hard so I cut the belt. Motor now turns by hand. What a surprise.
Thanks for the suggestions, it is a learning experience for me.
I am excited, what do I try next?

 

[Ozzzy66]

Check you wiring really well. If that is good and the oil is good put the generator/starter “alternator “ belt back on and check for spark and compression. If you have compression and spark then all you need is fuel and air.

 

[RayF]

You mentioned the Starter/Generator being hard to turn. I'd take a swipe at that next. . They are pretty easy to work on/repair. No special tools or skills are needed to take it apart, clean it, reassemble, and test.
The "hardest" part might be getting the pulley off. This is simply due to corrosion. You can dig into it without removing the pulley, but it will be harder to check the nose bearing.

The most common things that happen to them:
1) The commutator gets dirty (70% most common issue)
2) The brushes are worn too "short" to make good contact on the commutator. (20%)
3) The brush- holder springs are weak (5%)
4) The front and/or rear bushing/bearings are worn (5%)
It's fairly uncommon for the armature or the field coils to "burn out", or there is damage of some type to the unit.

I have to take the S/G off my 108 for detailing.. when I do, I'll try to create a repair pictorial, or maybe try a video.

 

[rleo]

RayF, I'm currently looking to rebuild the starter generator on my 100. What do you use to clean the inside of the S/G?

 

[bfleisch]

I used compressed air. CAUTION: It will be a mess. Wear a mask and eye protection.

 

[rleo]

I used compressed air. CAUTION: It will be a mess. Wear a mask and eye protection.

Bfleish, I'm afraid to use any kind of solvent for fear of damaging insulation. Still, it's a mess inside and I'd like to swab it out. I don't think the S/G has ever been rebuilt. The fields look to be in good shape.

 

[RayF]

It is safe to use HOT soapy water, and a degreaser- such as Gunk engine-cleaner I also have a long round nylon brush. It will not damage the insulation on the field coils, or the armature. Blow dry.

Are you cutting the Mica back on the commutator? That is the most crucial part to get cleaned out, so The brushes ride over the copper correctly.

 

[rleo]

It is safe to use HOT soapy water, and a degreaser- such as Gunk engine-cleaner I also have a long round nylon brush. It will not damage the insulation on the field coils, or the armature. Blow dry.

Are you cutting the Mica back on the commutator? That is the most crucial part to get cleaned out, so The brushes ride over the copper correctly.

RayF. Thanks! RE the mica, there's a you tube that gently gets the mica off with gentle abrasion, I forget, either 200 or 400 grit gentle paper.

 

[Imnaykid]

Thanks again everyone. When I turn it over by hand with the front pulley I could hear something. So I took the top off. The valves move the piston does not. Sprayed the top of piston with penetrating oil and put top on without tightening. Remember my father talked about a short block when he fixed it in the 1970's. I found there is a Kohler repairman in the next town and I called him about what I have found. He says he will not work on it because it is mowing season and he is too busy. He says he put a short block in his uncles machine a few years ago but before he finished his uncle bought a new zero turn machine. So he never finished the repairs. He said he will sell me the whole motor and I should be able to take 2 and get 1 to run.
I am in deep, into unknown territory, any thoughts?

 

[RayF]

1) Commutator: The commutator is the series of copper sections,separated by mica insulation. It can be cleaned with sandpaper down to about 320G (and finer). I prefer a RED Scotchbrite pad (around 500G equivalent). You can use finer grits.. it just takes longer.
2) Mica: The mica is the thin insulated sections between the copper sections that the brushes ride on. IF the copper wears down even with the mica- the brushes ride on the insulation instead of the copper. If this happens, the starter/generator may work intermittently, slowly, or stop working all together.
To repair, you must "cut back" the mica. Electrical/alternator shops have a machine to do this, but it really isn't hard to do by hand.
- Get a hacksaw blade, and you will notice the teeth are "offset"- some face right, some face left. Use a bench grinder to make the blade feel "flat"... this will also make the blade thinner. You want it as thin as the insulation (mica) sections of the commutator end of the armature. I like to wrap the end of the hacksaw blade with a little electrical tape- to make it easier to hold.
I like to hook my left thumbnail on the lip of one of the copper sections- and start the hacksaw blade against my fingernail. You want to cut the mica back (down) about 1/32". It only takes a few strokes per section. So you can easily feel the groove. Do this to all the sections. It helps to mark the 1st one with a Sharpie marker.
Note: Don't worry if you accidentally scratch the copper occassionally- it won't hurt anything. Just don't cut a groove into a section.
After you have cut the insulation back, use the sandpaper or Scotchbrite, to go over the copper sections. Then use compressed air to clean out all the grooves you just created.

Motor/Engine: These little things are simple. Follow the directions in the shop manual, and try to be extra clean during assembly.