IH-CC 122 w/ issues while driving

[Mike Wilson]

I have an IH Cub Cadet 122 w/ the Kolher 12HP motor and manual H transmission that I purchased back in April.
I've been fixing it up, tuning this or that here & there, new oils/lubes, new belts, etc. Unit was sitting for a couple years before I purchased it.

I seem to be having trouble after about 15-20 minutes of running. Even if just idling in the driveway.
So after about 15-20 minutes of the engine running.. doesnt matter if driving, tilling with the Tiller1A, or just idling... the mower will start to bog down IF the transmission is put in gear.
If I take it out of gear & shut off the PTO, then it will return to normal running engine speed.
I put it back in gear and I'll get another 30-60 seconds of regular running before starting to bog down the motor again.
It has a great condition engine and lots of power for PTO & drive for the first 15-20 minutes.. before the drive/tranny starts to bog the engine down.. but like I said soon as the tranny is disengaged the engine picks right back up.

I'm usually pretty good with the engine side... but wondering if anyone seen this type issue before. I'm sure it has to do with the drive train or transmission.. just dont know where to start looking.
It only seems to be happening when the tranny is in gear.. doesn't matter what gear.

Any help or pointers would be appreciated.

Here is the list of things I've already worked on, all minor items so far
-New engine oil (using 10-30 for summer)
-changed the gear oil in the transfer case (noticed some water in the gear oil when I changed it)
-Rebuilt carburetor
-Refabricated Accessory height control lever & locking pins
-Refabricated drive clutch control lever/linkage
-all new belts
-rebuilt starter generator with new brushes/coils

 

[kmcconaughey]

WELCOME!

Check the vent in the gas cap. When it starts to happen, loosen the gas cap and see if the issue goes away. If that's not it, then I would suspect the condenser is failing when it gets hot. Could also be the coil failing when it gets hot but the condenser is cheaper and IMO more likely to fail. If none of these are the issue it could be a loose head bolt and or a blown head gasket. Look for signs of oil coming from around the head. One other thing to check, does it have rubber fuel lines or the original copper lines? If rubber, how old are they? If they are old they could be breaking down inside and causing slow/low fuel flow.

 

[fcurrier]

Welcome, Mike!
. . . but, Kraig, why just when the transmission's engaged?

 

[kmcconaughey]

Welcome, Mike!
. . . but, Kraig, why just when the transmission's engaged?

Frank, more load on the engine. Perhaps I'm wrong but I assumed "in gear" meant with the clutch out and attempting to move the tractor which would put more load on the engine.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Frank, more load on the engine. Perhaps I'm wrong but I assumed "in gear" meant with the clutch out and attempting to move the tractor which would put more load on the engine.

-Original copper gas lines
-Coil & condensor seem to be good becuase as soon as I take it out of gear/put in neutral the engine returns to regular operating speed.
-no oil traces or head gasket issues



this happens whenever its in-gear (not in neutral) doesnt matter if clutch is in or not.
I will try your suggestions on the fuel cap later today and post a small video later today/tomorrow of it happening

 

[tromaniecki]

Sounds like a fuel problem to me, those copper fuel lines are pretty small on the ID.
Don't take much to plug'm up! Also have had the fuel bowl shutoff get plugged too with similar problems.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Sounds like a fuel problem to me, those copper fuel lines are pretty small on the ID.
Don't take much to plug'm up! Also have had the fuel bowl shutoff get plugged too with similar problems.

I agree the lines are small, but its only seeming to happen when the tranny is in gear.. I let it run at full throttle the other day for an hour and no issue till I put the tranny in gear... tiller/PTO was running the entire hour (to place stress on engine) without any issues.

 

[snicklas]

I agree the lines are small, but its only seeming to happen when the tranny is in gear.. I let it run at full throttle the other day for an hour and no issue till I put the tranny in gear... tiller/PTO was running the entire hour (to place stress on engine) without any issues.

Then it sounds like there may be issues inside the transmission. If it will run for an hour with the tiller running (granted running in free air isn’t the load as if you were tilling) but at then end of that hour, you put it in gear and tried to move it and it (especially if you had stopped the tiller) it tried to stall out, I would say that points to the transmission....

Same as if you had a bad bearing in a deck spindle, and the engine would run all day until you engaged the deck and it would try and stall, that would point me to the deck/drive, not an engine problem.....

 

[tromaniecki]

So after about 15-20 minutes of the engine running.. doesnt matter if driving, tilling with the Tiller1A, or just idling...

Then it sounds like there may be issues inside the transmission. If it will run for an hour with the tiller running (granted running in free air isn’t the load as if you were tilling)

Scott, unless I'm reading his post wrong he says even when tilling problem starts after 15-20 mins.

So I'm sticking with fuel problem. 'Full' bowl runs good, but restriction somewhere or float issue won't allow it to fill back up fast enough till engine dies, then fuel trickles back filling bowl again , and repeat. Without a real load it flows enough fuel to run forever. Plugged vent will do same thing as Kraig said.

 

[fcurrier]

Maybe time to jack the rear wheels off the ground and try it?

 

[dschwandt]

Restriction in the valve at the fuel sediment bowl.
Take apart and clean.
Make sure there is nothing floating around INSIDE the tank that will find it's way to the outlet and partially cause fuel stoppage.
Remove and flush thoroughly.

 

[snicklas]

Scott, unless I'm reading his post wrong he says even when tilling problem starts after 15-20 mins.

So I'm sticking with fuel problem. 'Full' bowl runs good, but restriction somewhere or float issue won't allow it to fill back up fast enough till engine dies, then fuel trickles back filling bowl again , and repeat. Without a real load it flows enough fuel to run forever. Plugged vent will do same thing as Kraig said.

I’m looking at what he said in Post #7. He said he let it run for over an hour, at WOT with the tiller running and it was fine until he put it in gear......

If it was a vacuum being drawn from a plugged vent, or the float sticking partially closed, it wouldn’t run fine at WOT for over an hour, and then stall out when put in gear. Even if it was something floating around and only block the pickup part of the time, it would take a bit for the fuel bowl to run out of fuel and stall. Not, I put it in gear and it stalls......

I agree with Frank in Post #10. Jack it up and put it in gear with the wheels off the ground.

 

[tromaniecki]

I’m looking at what he said in Post #7. He said he let it run for over an hour, at WOT with the tiller running and it was fine until he put it in gear......

Okay, but I'm looking at what he said in post #1 where he says idling or working.

So after about 15-20 minutes of the engine running.. doesnt matter if driving, tilling with the Tiller1A, or just idling... the mower will start to bog down IF the transmission is put in gear.

I'm still sticking with fuel.....

 

[tromaniecki]

It would be funny though if there was no fluid in the tranny and it heats up and binds?????
Dunno...reaching for the moon with that thought, never happened to me.

 

[dschwandt]

How about disconnecting the drive shaft and removing the top cover and taking a look see?
Turn the input shaft, see, feel and listen to just WTH is going on there!

 

[hydroharry]

Hey David S - a 122 doesn't have a top frame cover. I guess you mean remove the fenders and then remove the top cover on the shifter handle. Not sure it's fully exposed even with the fenders removed.

Mike - it's been a long time since someone has come up with what seems to be a real stumper. I to disagree with your problem being a fuel issue (but make sure you do the gas cap check anyway). I'm wondering if it's something to do with your drive clutch assembly. I'd certainly check that all out before I'd go tearing into the tranny itself.

BUT even before that, how much fluid did you put in the tranny? And what weight fluid did you use? You mentioned you changed the fluid in the transfer case which I assume you mean the tranny. Hopefully you used HyTran or HyTran Plus or HyTran Ultratraction fluid (or at least an equivalent like NAPA Premium Heavy Duty Tractor Hydraulic & Transmission Fluid) and filled it up to the level of the check plug on the back cover of the tranny, which should be 3 and 1/2 quarts. I know the operator manuals says you can also use SAE30 engine oil but I wouldn't recommend that for your tranny. Spend a little extra and get the real good stuff. I'm really hopeful you didn't use gear oil like 85W90 or some such weight, which if you did could be the cause of your problem.
As as aside, SAE 10W30 is not recommended in your Kohler single cylinder cast iron engine. You should use straight SAE 30.

Let us know. You got us going with a real stumper.

 

[tromaniecki]

I seem to be having trouble after about 15-20 minutes of running. Even if just idling in the driveway.
So after about 15-20 minutes of the engine running.. doesnt matter if driving, tilling with the Tiller1A, or just idling... the mower will start to bog down IF the transmission is put in gear.

Hi Mike, could you clear up something please.
I interpret what you have said in the quote, to imply the tractor will run for 15 or 20, while engaging the tiller into the earth with the tractor moving. (Along with other scenarios)

Is that correct?

I'm just confused, you cannot be tilling if the transmission is in neutral. And how the tractor is being used when you experience the issue makes a HUGE difference in what might be wrong. I just don't think you have a complicated, convoluted, never would have thought of that type of problem. I think it's rooted in the basics somewhere, fuel, air, spark. Of course I could be wrong, and frequently am, just trying to help and understand your description of the issue.

 

[gloughery]

I had something like this just happen on my 107. It runs fine in idle and then spits and sputters when I drive off. Turns out the fuel shut off valve kept spinning closed and I never really paid attention to that because I kept playing with everything. I’ll have to repack that and tighten things up. It took an hour of tinkering to realize the vibrations screwed it in.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Hey David S - a 122 doesn't have a top frame cover. I guess you mean remove the fenders and then remove the top cover on the shifter handle. Not sure it's fully exposed even with the fenders removed.

Mike - it's been a long time since someone has come up with what seems to be a real stumper. I to disagree with your problem being a fuel issue (but make sure you do the gas cap check anyway). I'm wondering if it's something to do with your drive clutch assembly. I'd certainly check that all out before I'd go tearing into the tranny itself.

BUT even before that, how much fluid did you put in the tranny? And what weight fluid did you use? You mentioned you changed the fluid in the transfer case which I assume you mean the tranny. Hopefully you used HyTran or HyTran Plus or HyTran Ultratraction fluid (or at least an equivalent like NAPA Premium Heavy Duty Tractor Hydraulic & Transmission Fluid) and filled it up to the level of the check plug on the back cover of the tranny, which should be 3 and 1/2 quarts. I know the operator manuals says you can also use SAE30 engine oil but I wouldn't recommend that for your tranny. Spend a little extra and get the real good stuff. I'm really hopeful you didn't use gear oil like 85W90 or some such weight, which if you did could be the cause of your problem.
As as aside, SAE 10W30 is not recommended in your Kohler single cylinder cast iron engine. You should use straight SAE 30.

Let us know. You got us going with a real stumper.

I think Harry may have hit the nail on the head here... when I was changing the fluids the local small engine company I get my parts from said to use 80W140 gear oil in the tranny. I'll be replacing the 80W140 with the correct fluid soon as I can get it picked up and testing from there.

Will let y'all know the results... thanks for everyone input.

 

[mgwin]

80W140?!! Wow, that stuff would be like molasses!
I would highly suggest to take the rear cover off and try cleaning all you can out before putting in the Hytran. The axle housings will have some in them also. You may get by without taking these off (lot more work involved), but I would remove the rear cover. You can get a rear cover gasket for around 12-15 bucks.