Archive through November 09, 2012

[hydroharry]

 

[dtanner]

Well I just have to give the Bear a poke on this lol. ( Popping out of gear means bent/maybe wirn shift forks to me.).........................WORN

 

[dtanner]

Harry Bursell

 

[hydroharry]

Well Don - I was 1st until I edited or did something, and you got in ahead of me. If that button pic were any smaller I couldn't even tell it was a button. Is that a nut on the backside?

 

[fwatson]

Hydro Harry and Kraig:
Thanks for the Information on the balance gears. I wish I has looked into this 3 months back before I put the 1200 back together

Is there any information, or pictures on how to remove the balance gears?
If I leave the balance gears inplace am I asking for trouble?

 

[hydroharry]

Frank - click on the FAQ link above which takes you to the Cub Cadet FAQ, and then click on the link at the top of that page which takes you to Charlie's FAQ's, then scroll down to no. 92 and it will describe how to remove the balance gears. One point missing in those details is to make sure you get any little pieces out of the crankcase when you remove the second gear. I'll try to attach the link to make it easier.
http://cubfaq.com/balancegearremoval.html

With regard to your question about whether you're asking for trouble, well.... if I would have know about the balance gears when I rebuilt the K341 in my 169, I would have left them out, and if David Kirk had developed his balance method at that time, I would have had it installed on my crankshaft. But since none of that was known or available my K341 has the balance gears in it, course I only use it for shows, but she sure runs good, and actually doesn't shake much. So, are you asking for trouble - well, I never lost an engine because of these gears but there seems to be plenty of guys that have seen them put a window in the block. I guess it's your call. Many guys on here will tell you to get them out or risk putting that window in your block. If you do pull them you'll likely experience more vibration than you currently have, but then again you won't have to worry about a window.

 

[kide]

Harry:
AT the risk of starting a "flambe conflagration" again (from a few years ago), I still say that a properly maintained engine will seldom lunch the balance gears. The major issue with 'em looks to be the increase in tolerances (bearing, shaft, possibly the gear teeth) that accumulate after years of use - accentuated in many cases by poor oil maintenance practices..... How many forum members (besides Dennis) know the history of their tractor from the point of dealer delivery on? I am a second owner of my 129 and know the history of the K301 in it, because it's a black crate motor I put in after 10 years of use, in 1995. (The funny thing there is the original engine went in a 107, without so much as a ring job and was still puffing away last I knew).

If you checked the tolerances on all the balance gear parts, including stub shafts, etc. and replaced what was needed, installed properly, I wouldn't worry... The engine re-builders in my area will give you a strange look if you suggest that they rebuild a K series engine without the balance gears (keeping in mind these are mostly L&G people, not performance oriented). I will at the same time admit that the 14/16 horse rebuild I do will include David's balance plates, as I've read nothing but good about the conversion. My main point is still the same - if everything is tight and kept in good oil, don't sweat the gears........

 

[dfrisk]

GERRY - I was "Present at Delivery" at only one of my CC's delivery when new. The 72 was 13 yrs old when I bought it, and already had a complete replacement K181 installed 2-3 yrs before I bought it. The 982 was about 20 yrs old with a fresh rebuild of the Onan just before I bought it. I knew how the first 2-3 engines in the 70 were run and serviced, since I did most of the running & servicing. But the engine in the 70 now hasn't even got CC sheetmetal on it.. It's a Kohler but I'm not even sure if it's a K161 or 181. The 70 mowed two big farm yards every week for the first eight years of it's life, so the original engine was rebuilt after 3 yrs, replaced after three more with a K181, and the K181 was rebuilt when around 4-5 yrs old.

While I've heard of a few people replacing the studs, needle bearings, and balance gears during a rebuild, most don't and that's what IMO causes the new picture windows in the blocks. By the very nature of the imbalance of the gears they wear the needle bearings out quickly which leads to the failures. Counter-rotating balance shafts in engines are common, but the design of the balance gears in a Kohler is lacking IMO. You compare the tiny needle bearings in the balance gears to the big honkin' ball bearing main bearings in a Kohler and you would think Kohler would have used a better bearing on the gernade gears. A small ball bearing in them would have been a MUCH better idea.

And if I was the owner of a small engine repair shop I'd convince customers to replace the balance gears, bearings, etc too.... increased parts sales are where you find them!

 

[bjamison]

Dennis F - just curious, when you were mowing with the 70 and had to replace or rebuild after 3 or 4 years, how many hours were you putting up on the tractor? Was it just the nature of the engine to have to be rebuilt/replaced after that many years. Reason I ask is I'm sure you guys did a great job of maintaining the engines - so I assume you were rolling up a lot of hours under hard work and/or that engine just doesn't hold-up under those kind of conditions like maybe a larger K series engine.

Under edit: On another note - I can appreciate being present when a "classic" tractor is delivered vs. what is being produced today. I bought my first (other color) tractor new in 1998 and it was a left over 1997 model - last year of it's configuration. It is all steel and cast iron, gear drive and a great Kohler Magnum 14 hp engine in it. Looking back, I was/am glad I could buy "new" a tractor that was designed in the spirit of heavy duty, old iron garden tractors.

 

[wshytle]

I'll say this about the grenade gears. In more than half that I have removed the needle bearing were weak at best. One engine had needle bearings in the oil pan. I agree with what Dennis said about the engineering being "lacking". I also agree that the way to go would be having the crank balanced and do away with the balance gears altogether.

 

[dfrisk]

BILL - No hour meters on any CC's until I put one on my 72 back in '85 when I rebuilt the K241 and installed it. So any number of hours of run time would be a pure SWAG, but mowing time was 3-4 hours per yard each week. If I mowed the whole house yard, and ALL the grass areas around all the buildings, and the quarter mile of road bank my mowing time was closer to 5 hours. We had a pretty good sized barnyard, we could easily turn semi livestock trucks around to load either out of the barn or corn crib which sat at right angles to each other. The barnyard also doubled as my little league baseball team's practice field with the barn as the backstop and NOBODY ever came close to hitting a ball into the house yard.

The little 7 & 8 HP engines were taxed right to their limit to run the 38" mower and move the tractor. So that had more to do with the short time between rebuild/replacment than a design flaw in the Kohler engine. The bigger engines, 10, 12, & 14, even 16 HP engines last much longer since they don't have to be run near as hard. Kinda like your car or pickup, run it flat out and the engine will last a few thousand miles, run it 50-60 MPH and it will last a few Hundred Thousand miles. Engines that are built to withstand full load for hours on end like trucks & full size tractors are tuned WAY different than car/truck engines, and have more coolers for oil, fuel, combustion air, etc. Plus today's oils are much better than what was available back in the 1960's. Dad used good oil, it's just that the best oil in 1965 wasn't that great.

 

[dschwandt]

Good Morning Gang! I'm installing the QA42 on my 1650, what a PITA by ones self!!
Any way, I am missing the lift rod and chute crank rod and support. Plan on making a lift rod, no problem, just how long should it be between mounting holes is all I need to know.
Anyone have a pic and or some measurements??

Thanks!
Dave S

 

[digger]

David S.
The best thing to do if you don't want to use the standard 28" long lift rod is to put the thrower on the machine. Set the amount of clearance you want the cutting edge to be. Then the amount of down travel you want, I set mine to go 1 1/2". You do that by putting a 2x4 board under each skid shoe.
Bear in mind that the more down travel you have, the less lift height you will have as well.
Then with the lift arm on tractor all the way forward, measure center hole to center hole and you have a perfect fit for your machine. And that allows for bends in the thrower and or slop in the lift parts on the tractor.

 

[hydroharry]

David S - just to supplement Charlie's recommendations, which by the way are "perfect" (yup Charlie, none better), when considering the "down travel" (below level), if you set it to high, like 1/2" or something you'll have to much lift and risk banging the handle on the upper chute into that nice cast aluminum nose on your 1650, possibly cracking your nose. It also can put it really close to your muffler exhaust pipe (depending on your muffler style) and that heats the chute resulting in melting snow and possibly clogging your chute. I made my own lift rod with a turn buckle so I could adjust the length exactly where I wanted it, and I think it turned out to be about 27 and 1/2", but I figured I had some wear in the holes where the rod mounted and I had added little shoes on my skids so it's hard to know what is exactly the best length for the lift rod.
Also, the thrower is only a PITA to mount by yourself the 1st time you do it. After that you figure out the various tricks to get it lined up, etc. If you didn't review the Installation and Operators Manual that's definitely a good idea. One thing you might have missed is the little lever that screws on the lower right of the thrower frame box. It's only there to angle the thrower up for mounting (it's shown in the manual). It's usually missing on most throwers I picked up. Also, rather than putting the thrower on the tractor, I found it a little easier to put the tractor on the thrower (roll the tractor forward onto the thrower) just in case you were trying to slide the thrower onto the quick attachment. And don't forget to make sure you get your gearbox pulley aligned with the PTO pulley. That takes alot of looking and sliding the gearbox pulley into place - but once you got the gearbox pulley aligned you shouldn't have to move it again as long as you keep using it on your 1650. And you also have to make sure you keep the correct tension on the belt once you have it on. I recommend you loosen and retension the belt before every time you use it.
NOW, you're ready to have some FUN!!!!!! Make sure you at least wear a ski mask.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Adjustable lift rods. The first one is one I made up back in the early 1990's. I made it to experiment with different lengths to see if I could improve on the stock length lift rod for my QA42. Turns out the stock length was best for my use.

Here's a drawing I made up for an improved adjustable lift rod based on some of the design details of Steve Blunier's "Blungineered" Ramming Speed™ heavy duty lift rod. This one wouldn't be as strong as Steve's original fixed length design.

 

[kfreeman]

Charlie,

I am confused. Wouldn't you put the tractor on 1-1/2" boards and the thrower skid shoes on the floor? That is what I did so that the thrower would drop below horizontal.

My rod for the 1250 and QA-36 is 27" overall, (or 26-1/2" c-c). I used 1/2" solid rod.

 

[hydroharry]

Ken - I should have known when I said Charlie was "perfect". I think you're right. Put the 2x4 under the front tires so you get about 1 and 1/2" of drop, would should give you the longest range of travel. Unless you're wanting to blow snow out of big holes you shouldn't need any more than that (hehehe). Incidently, I'd do the same thing to determine the lift rod length for a snow blade.

 

[elamott]

Donald and Harry Thanks for the comments regarding the clutch thrust button. I picked up a kit and rebuilt the clutch. The only issue I have is that the blower turns when I have the clutch disengaged. With the engine off I can turn the blower without the engine turning so I think that the new disc just needs to get smooth.
Now I am waiting for snow.
Thanks again
Earl

 

[wshytle]

Kraig-

Where do you get those hex couplers that take 1/2" threaded rod? I've been looking and haven't had much luck.

TIA

 

[digger]

Ken F.
Your RIGHT to a point UNLESS you think like I do, LOL
I'll add some to the equation, and I'm by no means a design engineer.
I have a float lockout on the 149 W/QA36A.
I also don't like the fact that when you hot hard snow/ice that the thrower floats up to a point even with the float lockout installed.
My thinking when I done it was, Keep the thrower at the low point by moving the lift handle all the way forward/down, and it would stay there or raise the entire tractor off the ground in the process of digging through the hard stuff.

Now you do loose about 1" by putting the 2x under the thrower than under the tractor, but you gain the power/weight of the tractor in trade.
Since the thrower tractor isn't inside for the winter yet, I had to use the loader.
Measures 3" with the 2x under the front wheel.

Measures 4" with it under the bucket.

And yes I do loose lift height, but since my place is dead flat, I'm not concerned about that.

I'll bring the thrower in later on this winter and take more exacting pics.