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Archive through May 04, 2013
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John B.
hydroharry
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- Harry Bursell
Bill J - well I sure hope you got the answer you were looking for on your question about Bon Ami, Comet, or Barkeepers Friend as Frank noted. Please don't post your results here if you do use it. We don't want to know how well it worked but that you could never figure out a way to get all the remanents out of the block. We really don't want anyone trying it. If you're gonna change the rings you have to have the piston and rod out, and you just as well come up with a hone and do it correctly. If using powdered sand worked it would have been well written up by others. Think of yourself as a surgeon - you want the surgery to be a success, and you don't want the patient to die from complications. The engine is your patient and you don't want your cylinder wall deglazing surgery to be a success but the engine die (fail) due to complications do you?
jchamberlin
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- Jeremiah Chamberlin
Bill J: If your original question was, "Has anyone ever heard of using Bon Ami in an engine?" My answer is, "Yes, I have heard of using Bon Ami to seat the rings in a fresh rebuild." An older mechanic in Kentucky shared the trick with me when I bought a pristine '78 Chevy Chevette (made by Isuzu) from him back in the early '80's. I had the same reaction as many of the forum members have given you, but he did an EXCELLENT job of maintaining the Chevette and his other cars, so I'm not willing to discount the practice entirely.
My understanding is that Bon Ami, distinct from the other brands of "Dutch Cleansers," contains some finely ground volcanic pumice that aids in quickly sealing the rings to the cylinder walls.
It may be worth a shot if your alternative is tearing down the block anyway. I would just be sure to follow-up the treatment with several oil changes in short order, which is required of a rebuild anyway. I can't remember how much Bon Ami he said he used for an eight-cylinder motor, but I doubt you would need much for a single-cylinder Kohler. He told me he dumped it into the engine through the carburetor's venturi (main throat).
Good luck, and report back (or not) as you wish. --My two cents.
My understanding is that Bon Ami, distinct from the other brands of "Dutch Cleansers," contains some finely ground volcanic pumice that aids in quickly sealing the rings to the cylinder walls.
It may be worth a shot if your alternative is tearing down the block anyway. I would just be sure to follow-up the treatment with several oil changes in short order, which is required of a rebuild anyway. I can't remember how much Bon Ami he said he used for an eight-cylinder motor, but I doubt you would need much for a single-cylinder Kohler. He told me he dumped it into the engine through the carburetor's venturi (main throat).
Good luck, and report back (or not) as you wish. --My two cents.
Bill J. Harry, and others
Bill to answer your question, yes I have heard of using cleanser to deglaze an engine. Back in the 50's when the use of "chrome rings" was becoming more the norm, I knew of at least one Chevy dealer that would use the "cleanser dusting" trick to help seat the rings to stop higher than normal oil consumtion, mainly on the new 348 block available in the 58 models. I don't know if it was a dealer fix or was factory recommended. If I remember correctly only one brand of cleanser was used, but I don't remember what brand it was. It was used by putting a small amount of cleanser in the palm of your hand and blowing it across the top of the carb with the engine running fast enough to suck the dust thru the carb. One car I am aware of that this was done to was a 58 Chevy sedan with a 348 Tri-Power engine. I am not aware of any later engine damage, but the excess oil consumtion did stop, however I cannot say the cleanser trick made it stop. I don't recommend this being done, specially on a small engine, but I also can't say the small amount of "dust" (the key words are small amount down the carb of an automotive engine is going to do damage to other engine parts. Put a dusting of cleanser in your hand and wet it and see what happens to it. It dissolve's or melts, and would probably do the same thing in the oil of an engine.
The bottom line is, yes I have heard of it.......but I wouldn't try it.
Jeremiah types faster than I do......
Bill to answer your question, yes I have heard of using cleanser to deglaze an engine. Back in the 50's when the use of "chrome rings" was becoming more the norm, I knew of at least one Chevy dealer that would use the "cleanser dusting" trick to help seat the rings to stop higher than normal oil consumtion, mainly on the new 348 block available in the 58 models. I don't know if it was a dealer fix or was factory recommended. If I remember correctly only one brand of cleanser was used, but I don't remember what brand it was. It was used by putting a small amount of cleanser in the palm of your hand and blowing it across the top of the carb with the engine running fast enough to suck the dust thru the carb. One car I am aware of that this was done to was a 58 Chevy sedan with a 348 Tri-Power engine. I am not aware of any later engine damage, but the excess oil consumtion did stop, however I cannot say the cleanser trick made it stop. I don't recommend this being done, specially on a small engine, but I also can't say the small amount of "dust" (the key words are small amount down the carb of an automotive engine is going to do damage to other engine parts. Put a dusting of cleanser in your hand and wet it and see what happens to it. It dissolve's or melts, and would probably do the same thing in the oil of an engine.
The bottom line is, yes I have heard of it.......but I wouldn't try it.
Jeremiah types faster than I do......
kostendorf
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- Keith Ostendorf
Ron, if you took the bolt off and the wheel is not coming off, the wheel bearings are frozen on the shaft by either rust or bearing failure. It will have to be forced off by press or hammer.
kostendorf
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- Keith Ostendorf
Take pictures so we can see your problem.
RONALD - There's 3/8" capscrews with a big flat washer on the ends of the spindle shaft in the middle of each front wheel. Remove that cap screw (9/16" wrench) and the wheel slides right off the spindle.
PAUL, HARRY, Bill J. - Wyatt & I were discussing my maintenance schecdule for my old PSD in my pickup years ago. I was putting around 32,000-33,000 miles per year on so I did an oil/filter change every 3000 miles, once a month.
Wyatt explained that he had worked on a project for extended oil change intervals going from say 100 hours to 200, 250, or longer. Granted, 3-1/2 gallons of oil and a $10 filter got expensive with my truck, and the engines he was working with used even more oil. Well, one of the byproducts of combustion in a diesel engine is "soot", my oil analysis shows a "% of soot" on them. It's small carbon particles that are normally blown out the exhaust as the black diesel smoke. Even when there's no black smoke they still make "soot", that's why newer diesels have particulate filters that actually burn up the soot by using a small amount of diesel fuel.
Well, that soot, just like Bon Ami is a fine powder, and when mixed with oil makes a wonderful abrasive slurry. It fits through the filter media in the OEM oil filter, but some after-market filters will remove it. As it turns out, ANY oil lubricated component in the engine is prone to wear by that soot. Biggest problem that happens first is excessive wear of oil seaks on revolving shafts, like crankshaft seals. Seals would start leaking much sooner with extended oil change intervals before other parts like rings, pistons/sleeves, or bearings would wear. So Bon Ami would not only wear the cyl. walls, but a little on the rings, the thrust faces of the piston, wear a lot on the rod bearing, and also where the crankshaft seals run. ANY place oil can reach, wear would occur. No way to control it.
PAUL, HARRY, Bill J. - Wyatt & I were discussing my maintenance schecdule for my old PSD in my pickup years ago. I was putting around 32,000-33,000 miles per year on so I did an oil/filter change every 3000 miles, once a month.
Wyatt explained that he had worked on a project for extended oil change intervals going from say 100 hours to 200, 250, or longer. Granted, 3-1/2 gallons of oil and a $10 filter got expensive with my truck, and the engines he was working with used even more oil. Well, one of the byproducts of combustion in a diesel engine is "soot", my oil analysis shows a "% of soot" on them. It's small carbon particles that are normally blown out the exhaust as the black diesel smoke. Even when there's no black smoke they still make "soot", that's why newer diesels have particulate filters that actually burn up the soot by using a small amount of diesel fuel.
Well, that soot, just like Bon Ami is a fine powder, and when mixed with oil makes a wonderful abrasive slurry. It fits through the filter media in the OEM oil filter, but some after-market filters will remove it. As it turns out, ANY oil lubricated component in the engine is prone to wear by that soot. Biggest problem that happens first is excessive wear of oil seaks on revolving shafts, like crankshaft seals. Seals would start leaking much sooner with extended oil change intervals before other parts like rings, pistons/sleeves, or bearings would wear. So Bon Ami would not only wear the cyl. walls, but a little on the rings, the thrust faces of the piston, wear a lot on the rod bearing, and also where the crankshaft seals run. ANY place oil can reach, wear would occur. No way to control it.
hydroharry
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Jeremiah, Paul and Bill J - geez I was really hoping we wouldn't hear/see more on the cleanser trick. In both cases Jeremiah and Paul mentioned, they were talking new engines or fresh rebuilds, and Bill has an old K241 in mind. Lets think about this. A car engine with 100,000 miles that say was used at an average speed of 50mph would equate to 2000 operating hours. It just happens that 2000 operating hours is generally about the norm I've heard for the average expected useful life of a Kohler engine before it requires a major internal service of some type like valves, rings, piston, rod, etc. Bill's tired engine is burning oil. It's very likely got an oversized bore, worn out rings, valve wear, and most likely 2000+ hours on the rod (which has a finite life). In my view we're talking 2 different scenarios. One new and one wore out. Putting powdered dust in a tired engine seems to me would just bring that tired engine to an end. Sure it may stop the oil burning, at least for a short time, but it's not a pressure lube engine, and it doesn't have 4, 6 or 8 cylinders being effected. It's got one cylinder and that dust is certainly going to get to the crankcase and mix with the oil and provide "non-lube" friction on the rod/crank, very likely scoring the crank and rod, maybe causing a seizure. Is the possibility of a short term oil use fix worth the risk of a complete engine failure. Bill - please just tear it down, see what you have, and if you can get away staying in spec by using new rings alone with proper honing, then save your engine and do it. It's gonna be my guess that new rings and honing will likely only give you 2-3 years of non-oil burning service. If you want the normal 2000hrs/20years go for the whole shabang and do it all. It will cost you some bucks right now, but 10 years from now when it's purring like a kitten you'll be thankful you did it. Sorry, but this is my 3 cents worth (due to inflation of course).
(under edit) Dennis - thanks for your more scientific explanation. I don't know what people think sometimes. I'll bet those 348 Chevys that Paul mentioned, stopped burning oil for about 50,000 miles, and then the engines failed. I recall hearing the 348 was a real problem - but then I also never heard how the same block punched to a 409 was so great.
(under edit) Dennis - thanks for your more scientific explanation. I don't know what people think sometimes. I'll bet those 348 Chevys that Paul mentioned, stopped burning oil for about 50,000 miles, and then the engines failed. I recall hearing the 348 was a real problem - but then I also never heard how the same block punched to a 409 was so great.
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Well I tried the Bon Ami trick and the engine immediately seized and blew a hole through the side of the block....
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!
Interesting reading - just asking about it, can't imagine trying it.
JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!
Interesting reading - just asking about it, can't imagine trying it.
hydroharry
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Ronald B - lets think about your front wheel problem just a minute here. You are supposed to have a wheel with 2 bearings (one on each side of the wheel) that are supposed to ride on the front spindle that has a shaft with a nice smooth shinny surface. Of course all of these surfaces are supposed to have grease on them to minimize friction and wear. There is also an outside bolt and washer that keeps each wheel from sliding off the spindle.
I assume you jacked up the front axle, removed the outer bolt and washer and tried sliding the wheel off each side. Neither would slide off. Then you tried using a hammer - I assume tapping on the wheel itself but "not" hitting it hard enough to put dents in the wheels. Neither wheel would slide off. It now seems apparent you have had a bearing failure on both sides. Most like the bearing race has failed allowing all those little balls to fall out and the race has been grinding against your nice shinny smooth spindle shaft - doing so it has cut a nice big gouge into the shaft as if it is cutting the shaft off. The heat from this action may have even acted like it was welding the race to the shaft. So what is your next step.
Besides using a hammer Keith O mentioned using a press - you could try that. You could also try removing the spindle itself with the wheel still on it so you could carry to a big press, but I'm not sure if you can remove the long bolt holding it to the axle (probably not sufficient clearance from the wheel). So that pretty much leaves you still having to use a hammer or a press of some type.
You could try to remove the outer bearing from the wheel which would allow more play/slack in moving the wheel up and down on the outer part of the spindle shaft, maybe allowing the inner race to break loose so you can slide it off. Or maybe with the outer bearing removed you can use a hammer again to break it loose. I can't think of much else here.
It sure seems you're gonna need new spindles and at least bearings for the wheels, and even possibly new wheels themselves. Good luck with your efforts.
I assume you jacked up the front axle, removed the outer bolt and washer and tried sliding the wheel off each side. Neither would slide off. Then you tried using a hammer - I assume tapping on the wheel itself but "not" hitting it hard enough to put dents in the wheels. Neither wheel would slide off. It now seems apparent you have had a bearing failure on both sides. Most like the bearing race has failed allowing all those little balls to fall out and the race has been grinding against your nice shinny smooth spindle shaft - doing so it has cut a nice big gouge into the shaft as if it is cutting the shaft off. The heat from this action may have even acted like it was welding the race to the shaft. So what is your next step.
Besides using a hammer Keith O mentioned using a press - you could try that. You could also try removing the spindle itself with the wheel still on it so you could carry to a big press, but I'm not sure if you can remove the long bolt holding it to the axle (probably not sufficient clearance from the wheel). So that pretty much leaves you still having to use a hammer or a press of some type.
You could try to remove the outer bearing from the wheel which would allow more play/slack in moving the wheel up and down on the outer part of the spindle shaft, maybe allowing the inner race to break loose so you can slide it off. Or maybe with the outer bearing removed you can use a hammer again to break it loose. I can't think of much else here.
It sure seems you're gonna need new spindles and at least bearings for the wheels, and even possibly new wheels themselves. Good luck with your efforts.
I don`t think it is that hard to get a wheel off. I had a stuck one and knew that the bearing was toast any ways ; so I took a round punch a one ball at a time beat it out of the bearing. she came off once I had some of the balls beat out. More that one way to skin a cat lol.
sorry wrong page for that last phrase.
sorry wrong page for that last phrase.
HARRY - 40 yrs ago there were two brothers and a good neighbor who pulled tractors at most of the local county fairs. The neighbor ran a Minneapolis with a V12 Allison airplane engine. One brother ran a W9 International with TWO 409 Chevy's, other brother ran a Massey Harris 55 with a pair of 427 Chevy's. The brother with the 409's won as often as the brother with the 427's and most times they both beat the neighbor with the Allison.
ANYHOW, anything I've read by Smokey Unick or CJ Baker said the 348 & 409's biggest problem was with the connecting rods simply because the pistons were round, cylindrical, except for the fact the tops were at about a 40 degree angle meaning one side of the piston was much longer than the other, and at 6000 RPM they tried to make a hard turn at the tops & bottoms of their stroke which put a LOT of bending force into the rods. They'd run for a while but when pushed hard would break rods.... Sounds like a Kohler!
ANYHOW.... Gotta Vent... Never do it much here. So... For $45 for a new ignition switch for a CC 70/100.... You STILL have to shell out another SIX BUCKS for the danged special fine thread nut to install the %@^*% THING! COME ON MTD.... Please raise the price to $50 and include the Danged NUT.
ANYHOW.. RONALD - Don't know what to tell you about your frt wheels on your 782. Sounds like your inner bearing races must be rusted solid to the spindles. I'd put the cap screws back in but leave them turned out from tight about 3-4 turns, then drive the tractor around in circles. The side thrust should pop them loose. I hate beating on my tractors with a hammer. Hammers seldo fix anything.
ANYHOW, anything I've read by Smokey Unick or CJ Baker said the 348 & 409's biggest problem was with the connecting rods simply because the pistons were round, cylindrical, except for the fact the tops were at about a 40 degree angle meaning one side of the piston was much longer than the other, and at 6000 RPM they tried to make a hard turn at the tops & bottoms of their stroke which put a LOT of bending force into the rods. They'd run for a while but when pushed hard would break rods.... Sounds like a Kohler!
ANYHOW.... Gotta Vent... Never do it much here. So... For $45 for a new ignition switch for a CC 70/100.... You STILL have to shell out another SIX BUCKS for the danged special fine thread nut to install the %@^*% THING! COME ON MTD.... Please raise the price to $50 and include the Danged NUT.
ANYHOW.. RONALD - Don't know what to tell you about your frt wheels on your 782. Sounds like your inner bearing races must be rusted solid to the spindles. I'd put the cap screws back in but leave them turned out from tight about 3-4 turns, then drive the tractor around in circles. The side thrust should pop them loose. I hate beating on my tractors with a hammer. Hammers seldo fix anything.
Denny,
Calm down man, it's been covered, LOL
Calm down man, it's been covered, LOL
Hey all - putting new front and rear oil seals in a K321 and not sure how far each goes in. Seems like the front gets countersunk an 1/8th or so and rear goes all the way in. Referred back to the manual but still not 100% sure. Thanks. Oh, and John B. - how bout hooking up all those roundies and pulling that train to my house!
