Archive through March 12, 2011

[digger]

Steve A.
"What do you guys think?"

To be VERY BLUNT and to the point!
That's a disaster waiting to happen.
And if you continue along those lines/angles.
PLEASE, do not let anyone close to that machine when you fire it up!!!

 

[aaytay]

Steve-
I'm with Matt and Charlie on this one. That thing is going to turn to "shrapnel" if you start that engine, and considering the parts of your body that are nearby, I'd think twice about that set up.

Excuse my poor photo-shop skills, but could you use an off-set-belt-drive something like this?

An added benefit of a set up like this would be that you could have some RPM adjustability by swapping out pulleys if needed.

I didn't draw it in, but you would need to figure out a way to support the driveshaft if you went with a system like this. Maybe a pillow-block bearing would do the trick?

 

[mbounds]

Steve A: That looks like a sure-fire testicle remover to me...Maybe the American Medical Association will let you patent that.

Myron B

 

[daweber]

Yep, a pulley/belt setup with pillow blocks is what you will have to do. Yes you can by u joints that can take that kind of angle, but if they were to give at 4k rpm, that could be disasterous. At least with the belts, if the belt breaks, its no big deal and you can still walk away.

 

[thoffman]

Myron,

 

[bborchers]

Might look a little like this.

 

[thoffman]

BB,
Now you're talking!

 

[sarcher]

I really don't want to try to transfer 45-60 hp through a belt setup. I think first I'll see
what lowering the engine, rotating the back down, and rotating the axle up a few degrees gets me.
Or I could just leave it like it is and rename the tractor "Gone, Nuts"
nice photoshop skills by the way.

 

[mgonitzke]

I'll post this here instead of the main forum so Charlie doesn't get his shorts in a wad

Jeremiah-

A tube is only stronger than a solid shaft for the same cross-sectional area. This is why you are seeing a larger diameter on the newer machines. I'd also be willing to bet that they went to the tube so they could get the same strength as a smaller diameter solid shaft with less material, thus saving material costs. The 2000 series tractors that used them haven't been around long enough to compare longevity. For normal use, the driveshaft is not at its 'design limit'...I have only seen a couple of broken driveshafts, and both were in an area of massive wear that was due to other problems being ignored for far too long. There are also MANY stronger steel alloys that can be used instead of the cold-rolled low-carbon steel that was used at the factory. I've used 4140 steel on my last couple of driveshafts...it only costs a little bit more and is much stronger.

I've pulled original flex discs out of many tractors. I don't think the U-joints like the 'rough' torque application of the single- and twin-cylinder engines in our Cubs. I know Dennis has posted several times about the issues with the U-joints that JD used in a few of their GTs...perhaps he'll chime in here. The rubber discs absorb the torque pulses from the engine so that the hydro transmission doesn't get beaten to death by them. If they are installed properly they can last perhaps 1000 hours. Most people overtighten them and they don't last. Visual inspection is very easy; if they are cracked or more than mildly distorted, they need replacing. Attempting to wiggle the driveshaft radially will tell you the condition of the ball bushings.

You are correct, a 'maintenance-free' solution isn't really feasible, but if you take a couple of minutes to inspect it once in awhile, you'll catch small problems before they turn into big issues, and I bet you'll find minimal maintenance is required

I guess, in summary, I'm not seeing the need to reinvent the wheel here. The design used by IH (and CCC until the 'cyclops' tractors) works just fine with proper maintenance. Ignore the maintenance and issues will arise, regardless of the design.

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt

You obviously have more knowledge in this area than I. Thank you for very informative post. I guess if you used 4140 steel for the shaft you have the facilities for drilling the holes accurately.

Thank you also for answering my question about the drive cup on the main forum.

But I gotta say, conversing with you is getting expensive. If I buy all three transmission plates I'm over $150, and over $50 for the drive cup. Just when I thought I was getting to the end of the project, another major effort looms.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm channeling Don Tanner "two steps forward, one step back."

 

[mgonitzke]

Jeremiah-

You should be able to find a used drive cup somewhere. Put a want ad in the classifieds and see what happens. What do you mean by 'transmission plates'?

Fear not, you certainly aren't the only one who has bought a neglected tractor and had to fix all of the problems that the PO has ignored for too long. I've had quite a few like that myself. The last tractor I fixed up, an 1872, was 'ready to mow' according to the craigslist ad, but it in fact needed about $500 in parts and six weeks of downtime to replace a broken transaxle case and a few other things here and there that had been cobbled before it was 'ready to mow'. You can also be glad that we can still get a significant number of parts for these machines

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt

In your first response you mentioned wear in the trunnion slot. The trunnion slot is in one of three plates in the linkage. I wasn't sure if I might have to replace some of the other ones too. I'm going to wait until I get it apart before making a decision. I'll probably buy a new cup, I don't want to take a chance on metal fatique.

But don't forget, you also added, "Might as well replace the cork gasket and the brake puck O-ring while you are in there, too. A Hytran and filter change would be a good idea, too."

I changed the filter and fluid only less than 30 hours ago. I guess I'm just feeling sorry for myself. I soooo want to get this machine working right.

Edit: I didn't pay anything for the tractor, but the previous owner (a co-worker at the time) sucked me with, "it just needs a little tender loving care." I haven't yet gotten back to him with what an understatement that was. I've got enough in the tractor now that I could have bought a new 2000 series tractor. Of course, I've learned a lot about small engines, tractor chasses, and wiring.

Anyway, thanks for responding so faithfully to my posts. When I get done, I'll tell the "unconfuguliating" story in the "Restoration" section.

 

[mgonitzke]

Jeremiah-

You don't need to replace any of those plates. Just weld up the wear in the corners of the trunion slot and put some shims between the snap ring and the cam plate to tighten up the slot there. That will return you to close-to-new operation without having to buy a bunch of new parts. If you've already changed the Hytran and filter recently, I'd hold off on the cork gasket and O-ring replacement until one or both start leaking.

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt: Sounds like a plan!

 

[glippert]

Jeremiah -
Sorry about my tardy response to your questions.

1. How does the engine-side yoke attach to the crank? <font color="0000ff">It has a keyed slot, with set screws.</font><font color="000000">

2. Is the drive-shaft yolk welded to the shaft, or is it keyed? Does it use a set screw? </font><font color="0000ff">Welded to the shaft.</font><font color="000000">

3. Are you still running a rag joint at the rear into the transmission? I've seen where some people have gone to a U-Joint at that point too. </font><font color="0000ff">I'm still using the rag joint at the rear.</font><font color="000000">

4. The textbook removal of a rag joint axle depends on removing no less than three (3) spirol pins to slide all the couplings back, then shifting the front of the axle so the rear of the axle can clear the cup at the transmission. How do you accomplish axle removal with U-Joint set-up? </font><font color="0000ff">Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your question. If I need to remove anything in the drive train, I'd remove the bolts from the rear rag joints, remove the engine mounting bolts, and slide the engine forward and or lift it out.</font><font color="000000">

Matt -
I'm curious to see what the longevity of those U-joints is like...didn't Denny post about JD using that setup and frequent replacement of the U-joints? </font><font color="0000ff">I saw some of that conversation, too, after I did the modification (just over 4 years ago). So far, I don't see any sign of any problems, so...

I actually got the u-joint as part of the kit when I bought the Vanguard. The kit included standoffs/spacers to lift the engine to keep the drive shaft straight/in-line, etc. The guy I bought it from has done a ton of repowering various garden tractors and other equipment, so hopefully it'll last. I'll certainly share with everyone if it ever does fail.

(</font>The website of the guy I bought from is: http://www.jimsrepairjimstractors.com)

 

[nbartee]

Matt

I agree with you completely in your 5:30 response. I've had my machine since 1985 and have never had a problem with the driveshaft, bushings, or rag joints and they are still original equip.

A question though, I am putting in a ported hydro for hydraulics and I'm not sure how tight to make the rag bolts. Any ideas on that, or does it say in a manual somewhere that I haven't seen? Also, do the roller bushings require grease?

Thanks

 

[jchamberlin]

Greg: Thanks for getting back.

I gave serious consideration to swapping in a Vanguard engine, but I didn't locate a source like the one you linked to --good work.

The thrust of my query on the drive-shaft removal question was just that: could the drive shaft be removed without unbolting the engine. Sometimes I need the engine out, sometimes I have to get the drive shaft out of the way. I'm trying to avoid a set-up where I have to unbolt the engine to remove the drive shaft.

The issue behind the question is my back and heart. I'm sure the Vanguard weighs less than the Kohler. I could move the B&S 16 HP motor by hand, but I find I need help to move the Kohler 18 HP. From what I could tell from researching B&S replacement motors, they are taking advantage of the fact that the OHV design makes more power than the L-Head design to CUT BACK on bore, stroke, and weight of their motors. So you're likely to get more power per pound out of a B&S motor, but I personally think you'll get more years of service out of a Kohler. I don't want to start a war. I'm just stating a personal preference, an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions --everybody has one.

I'm happy with my choice, I hope you're happy with yours.

 

[glippert]

Jeremiah - Yeah, so far, I'm very happy with the Vanguard, but you're probably right about the Kohler lasting longer. I still have my Kohler. I changed it because I thought it was shot. At the time, I was still pretty new to the Cub Cadet world and knew very little. Turns out, the Kohler wasn't "frozen" as I thought when it wouldn't turn over, even with a jump-start. After buying the Vanguard and removing the Kohler, I discovered I could turn the Kohler over freely. Now I'm thinking it was the starter. But don't tell my bride how foolishly I spent the money for a new motor! Now I'm casually watching for an affordable 782 roller to put the old Kohler into. My other three Cubs all have the Kohlers.

I definitely would have kept the drive shaft "original" with rag joints with a Kohler. I only went with the u-joint because the Vanguard drive-stub wouldn't work with the cup and rag joints.

Either way, it's a heck of a fun hobby, isn't it?

 

[jchamberlin]

Greg: Amen to the "heck of a fun hobby."

Listen, I won't tell your wife about the Vanguard, if you won't tell mine how much I've spent (and still have to spend) to get a "gift" mower running right.

Actually, she doesn't mind the expenditure of money as much as she's jealous of the expenditure of TIME!

If I can just get the transmission and the lights working I (think I can) leave it alone for the season.

Given what I've said about my spouse, she's really OK with my "devotion" to the Cubs, on one condition: (1) the lawn looks good when its mowed, (2) the lawnmower doesn't make too much noise or give off too many fumes when I do it.

We love each other, but it doesn't keep us from getting on each other's nerves at times.

P.S. I've just discovered the Emoticons button.

 

[sarcher]

has anyone ever tried replacing the tranfer gear setup that drives the pinion with a chain and sprocket set?
I'm contemplating such a thing for my hydro. change the stock 6:1 ratio for something like a 2:1.
More top end and I wouldn't have to flip my diff since I would be running my 4a084.
I found these pictures of a row-crop cub someone attempted, but he used a chain drive for the
input side of the tranny instead of the output.