Archive through March 12, 2008

[kweaver]

Wyatt - You're on the right track with the H pattern. The only other thing that could be done would be a machined H that could be hinged out of the way to shift then drop back down to hold the shifter from moving. That'll put alot of stress on the end of the shifter though is it's taking that much to hold it in gear. Love them Hydros !

 

[proessler]

Hi Guys, Just a simple & cheap idea for the shifter pop out; how about Bungee Strap ? I have not driven a gear drive since I traded my 128 for a 1450 in 1978. $.02

 

[dfrisk]

Last spring when We took My 72 out to break-in My K321 the trans NEVER had jumped out of gear before but with a FULL 14 HP+ going thru the tranny and tied to 7000+# of FARMALL dragging behind, it would pop out about every 10-15 seconds. I just don't think those 39 yr old gears & shafts liked what I was expecting them to do! Remember those gears were designed in the mid/late 40's to handle about 9-10 HP @ 1400 RPM and to expect them to withstand 15-20 HP @ 515 RPM is expecting a LOT from them.

The neatest thing was when I made TWO black marks 8-1/2" wide all the way across My My concrete driveway about 30" apart! Tranny didn't jump out of gear so I idled down the engine then snapped it WFO and the RPM's came right up in an instant.

 

[gfedwards]

Go to www.vogelmanufacturing.com and get the stiffer shifter detent springs. I think they are under $10. These work well. You can sometimes get away with just using these on a Pro Stock pulling tractor instead of a shift lock. If that does not work then I can get some pix of a shifter lock that is simple and you can change gears pretty fast with it.

 

[jcarson]

i wasnt sure where to ask this at but im sure you guys should know,, what if any changes need to be made to run e85. im in the procces of having the machine work done now on a motor im rebuilding and am have the head planed 40 thou. that should give about 1 point of comp. if i figured right.. then i will need to run better gas becase of the increase, and e85 happens to be a dollar less a gallon than normal.im not gonna pull this tractor just plow and mow but i want it to run as good as i can make it without sacrificing engine life,jared

 

[nbextermueller]

E85 has alot higher octane than reg fuel. (but I'm sure you know this) like 100-105 compared to reg gas's 87-93. E85, by chemical make up, has less energy than reg gas. So it tends to take more compression, timing, and more fuel in genreal to run back up at the factory level.

So with the head shaving your good there, timing your stuck with the factory setting, and the carb adjustments will need to be reset. settings will need to allow more fuel to enter the engine. so your fuel economy will probably decrease by 15-20%. I the long run, it may cost you more to run E85 to mow your grass.

It's good for pullers who can adjust their timing, cause it's way cheaper than actual race fuel. Which last I looked was 6-8$ gallon around here.

Oh, and you shouldn't need to run higher than 93 if your compression isn't over say, 10.0:1 you may even eek out 10.5 but I would run it on the rich side to make sure you don't cook a piston or plug.



did that help?

 

[jcarson]

yes that helps alot thanks, im just asking but cant i set the timing by adjusting the points? agian just asking,jared

 

[klejeune]

Jared,
Check out Brian Miller's site. Scroll down until you see the E85 logo.

http://hometown.aol.com/pullingtractor/carbfuel.htm

 

[nbextermueller]

As for the E-85 question. Brians web site is mostly correct. Although he glorifies it a bit. Keep in mind that using a higher octane gas does NOT automaticaly give you more power. It will actually decrease the output of a factory engine.

the need for a higher octane gas is a by-product of a performance engine. the slower burn and cleaner fuel allows a more precise use of higher compression and cam timing. And when you raise the compression alot you have to advance the timing to start the slower burning fuel sooner for a complete burn and to avoid detonation. E85 and alcohol also has an advantage of also "burning" alot cooler. keeping detonation even further away.

But in the long run it's not worth it in my opinion, but to each his own... It will work, and run great. and for those that like to tinker, it'll be alot of fun to setup.

I'm not sure if you can "advance" the timing with the points. the timing is set by the timing of the lobe on the cam. I don't think moving it up or down on the block will squeeze out enough. Maybe, one of our more experienced engines can clearify that.

 

[mgonitzke]

I need some advice on the clutch in my 582. My current clutch has a combination of parts from a 1x8 and 582. I used the throwout bearing from the 582, an 800# red spring, and the clutch driver from a 128. I made a custom-length driveshaft to work with the M18 that I installed. The problem is, I had to kludge together a clutch hanger bracket and throwout lever, and now that I've got the correct parts, I want to put them in. The problem is, the motor is about 3/4" too far forward, so the the bottom of the throwout lever points forward when the clutch is engaged, instead of being straight up and down. I'm going to be installing a Kohler Command 18, and I can't have that any further back than the M18 is because the Command is taller, as far as I can tell. I can't go look because I'm at school until the 30th, far away from home. Anyway, I'm contemplating adding a spacer, shown in green in the bottom drawing, to fix the throwout lever misalignment. Any of you pullers see an issue with that, or have a better idea? This tractor is my daily driver/plow tractor. Here's a couple of section views that'll hopefully illustrate what I'm wanting to do.

Here is my clutch as it is now.

Here is my proposed alteration, the addition of the green spacer.

 

[dfrisk]

MATT - I wouldn't use the spacer.....I'd make a piece for the throw-out lever or arm to move the whole arm the 3/4" forward so it hits the T/O bearing properly and if neccessary lengthen Your clutch rod but from what I've seen on most CC's I don't think that will be necessary.

 

[wcompton]

Matt-
You've got the room to make a double clutch setup. Otherwise I'd agree with the point Mr Frisk made.

Is that Mechanical Desktop graphics?

 

[mgonitzke]

Dennis F.-

I already have a homemade clutch hanger bracket and throwout lever, and I'm trying to eliminate those and go back to OEM parts. I can't really move the throwout lever forward any more because the pull rod will interfere with the engine mounting plate and some other stuff on the frame. The spacer just looks like the simplest solution. I don't want to reinvent the wheel again and make another clutch hanger and throwout lever. The first one was hard enough to figure out. If I had pictures, I could show you what I mean.

So I guess, out of curiosity, what's wrong with the spacer?

Wyatt-

I'll keep the double clutch in mind if I find this 800# spring isn't enough. Otherwise, same thing as I said to Dennis, I don't really want to reinvent the wheel again. I can make a spacer (or a bunch of spacers of varying lengths, in case my guess isn't right) way faster than I can re-do the clutch hanger/throwout lever again.

You're real close with the CAD software; I used Autodesk Inventor 2008.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys!

 

[dfrisk]

MATT - What I'd be afraid of is the spacer seizing up to the driveshaft and when You disengage the clutch the spacer would still be turning and eventually eat it's way through Your throw-out lever.
As soon as the lever touches the T/O bearing the outer part of the bearing stops turning but the inner race on the shaft turns with the driveshaft as it slows down and finally stops.

The spacer sleeve may work, but I'm just not sure how long for a daily work tractor. If You could make the spacer out of some sort of bearing/bushing material like an Oilite bushing that was oil impregnated it would sure help it last longer. Or leave the ID larger (.020"/.030") than the dia. of the drive shaft. Plus the ends of the sleeve should be really flat and parallel.

Wyatt & I have had SEVERAL long conversations about types of bearings and what works and why in different applications. Those conversations were mostly one-sided.....I'd ask a question and Wyatt would tell Me the answer! He's one of the Sharpest Engineers I've ever met on stuff like that!

 

[mgonitzke]

Dennis-

That was more or less what I was thinking. I'll be making it on a lathe so the ends wind up true. By the way, that drawing I made isn't totally correct; the throwout lever should be up higher than it is in the section views I posted. It is on the actual tractor, it just looks like there is contact between the spacer and the throwout lever in that drawing. I should have clarified that earlier; there will not be contact between the lever and that spacer. I figured adding a spacer would be okay since the OEM clutch has that spacer behind the teaser spring.

Here's a new, hopefully clearer picture:

 

[wcompton]

Your results may vary, but looking at your section view, a couple things strike me. By all means don't take this as a critique on your work, just observations. First, the throwout bearing's inner race is proud of the outer race by about 3/8, allowing for room for the clutch fork to ride. Between that race and the teaser spring I don't see anything wrong with adding a spacer. My personal feeling about the teaser springs is that they're junk, an equivalent stack of bellville washers will last longer and have a more consistent feel, and depending on how you nest the bellville washers with each other you can vary the spring rate in a given length.

If I can resurrect an old SCSI zip drive at home I've got 3D models of a complete double clutch assembly I did back in '98 or '99. I'll see what I can dig up for you.

BTW, Denny WAY over estimates my abilities. I've just screwed up enough to get decent contacts and books on machine components.

 

[mgonitzke]

Wyatt C.-

You can critique my section view all you want; I threw it together very quickly. The 582 throwout bearing assembly is a little different than the one for the older tractors. It consists of a spacer with a grease fitting, and then a sealed bearing that is pressed onto that. The more I think about it, the more I think I left out the part of that spacer that sticks out beyond the bearing. I can't remember that being there, but it probably has that. I wish I was home so I could go look.

I just found a couple pictures I took when I had the clutch out when I was home for spring break a few weeks ago. It doesn't show the end of the t/o bearing in question, but you can see that the 582 one is different from the earlier ones. Also note the kludged-together clutch hanger and throwout lever that I'm trying to replace.

 

[wheinsohn]

Matt,
The company I work for just bought the complete Inventor 2008 package a few weeks ago. I just completed the level 1 course on Tuesday. I hope to take the sheet metal, pipes and tubes, and the iassemblies classes next month. The fun part was that the first thing I had to draw could not be done on the 2-D sketch plane. I had to be taught how to use a 3-D sketch over the phone. Worse yet is there are not any classes for it either. They will have to come give me one on one training for a price. I am looking forward to using it for everything though.

 

[mgonitzke]

Wes H.-

I can only imagine what it must have been like to have someone teach you 3D sketches over the phone. I bet that was interesting.

It's a great software, I've been using various versions of Inventor since 2005. Thankfully, I can get it for free (legally, too) because I am a college student.

 

[wcompton]

Matt-
I guess it all boils down to how you want it to work. With an 800# spring it should be manageable. As Denny eluded to, how you choose to do it may be governed by what you'll be using it for. If it's a dedicated plow machine you should have good luck. If this is your primary mowing/snowthrowing/etc rig you might consider the Oilite bushing so that it doesn't sieze and keep the clutch locked.

<font size="-2">BTW, not to get too far off topic, I use SolidWorks for production work and AutoCad for up-front sales/layout and driveline layout work (PTO and Split shaft water pumps, CAFS compressors, etc). I was a Pro/E driver for 10+ years as well.</font>