Archive through June 30, 2014

[jstorma]

The gentleman with the 582 (not special) called me tonight. I'm going to go look at it tomorrow night.

Harry, I asked more about the electric PTO clutch he said it engages with the key on and engine off. If you grab the clutch, you can spin the engine. If the engine in running and flip the PTO switch you can hear the clutch engage but the engine dies as if turning the key off. I'd still assume the pto switch is faulty or maybe the seat safety switch. If I haul it home, It'll be one of the first things I'll resolve.

Tom, What do you mean by clutch lever in the picture? I'd assume number 20. If this is so, is the side movement from the holes on top of 20 being wore and elongated? Or does it mean #5,or 14 is wore out? Probably all three!

If there is a clicking sound in the transmission what would it be?

He also mentioned, the engine idles high. Is this a common problem?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[sblunier]

Jim,

Jumper wire around the switch and see what happens......easy check. Make sure the PTO bearing spins (with only brake ring resistance).

"Click" in trans could be any number of things.....hard telling.......

 

[jchamberlin]

Harry, you misunderstood me. I meant that your muffler and mine have the same dimensions.

You posted (in part):
[Begin Quote]
By Harry Bursell (Hydroharry) on Friday, August 16, 2013 - 12:10 am:
. . .
Jeremiah - hey, ya still learn something about these units every day (well almost every day). It's great to hear your muffler dimensions are the same as mine.
[End Quote]

In my defense, I was doing a quick search in order to make the 30 minute edit window on my posting, so I didn't have time to trace backward to the dimensions I originally posted (and I still don't).

Guys, I know the idle is high, I don't think the WOT is high enough. I'll have to get my tach out and check it, something I've been meaning to get around to . . .. The tractor needs some attention, the throttle backs off full when mowing while the hydrostatic slips upward into top speed.
The combination makes for some adventurous mowing experiences.

 

[hydroharry]

Jeremiah - by golly you're right. I looked back at the archives and your dimensions are the same as mine. Maybe my muffler is in fact a 10-14hp noise suppression version. I know I verified my muffler was the same size as Jim Chabot had on his 169, except for the original stubby outlet, and my inlet has that 45degree curve where his has the straight inlet. I'm still hoping Jeff will post at least his diameter dimension so we know for sure. It was going on 14 years ago when I was checking Jim Chabots muffler dimension and I'd like re-verification since we all know how memories are.
And Jeremiah - please do get out your tach to measure your WOT. I sure think you're over the limit.

Jeff - are you working tonite? When you get a short break (instead of one of those long breaks) can you measure your 169 muffler diameter? (Hope you still have the muffler off and with you).

 

[dfrisk]

JIM S. - I wouldn't be worried about a CC gear drive. My CC 72 is 46 yrs old,I've owned it 33+ yrs. And the ONLY transmission or rearend problems I ever had was 2-3 yrs ago the 1st/reverse shift fork loosened up on the shift rail, the short 3/8" bolt holding the fork onto the rail loosened up after almost 45 yrs, I had to pull the shifter lever cover off and tighten the shift forks back up, took and hour or two to get to the cover, five minutes to remove the cover, tighten both forks, replace the cover, then two more hours to re-install the whole rearend in the tractor. On a 582, with the removable center frame cover, that repair would have been a ten minute total job.

The clutch teaser springs don't get "lost", they break, the tractor still runs & moves, the clutch just gets "grabby". Wyatt used "Belleville washers" in the clutch on his "141 Wheatland" which could be a permanent solution to the teaser spring problem. The Anti-rattle springs on the clutch disk & 3-pin driver can get "lost" if not installed correctly. The manuals shows them installed towards the end of the driver pins, which assures them flying away, install them on the pins before sliding the engine back so the drive pins go through the holes in the clutch disk, then pull the ends of the springs over the outer edge of the disk, they're trapped on the pins then, can't get away.

I think Tom H will agree with me... the Hydro CC's are REALLY reliable.... the GD CC's are even MORE reliable.

 

[jbaker]

Dennis, I have had 2 gear drives fail me, meaning I cant drive them under their own power due to the clutch wear outs. I can't say that any of my hydros have ever done that.

So from a user prespective my hydros are more reliable than gear drives....

plus I like em more

Jim take a good look at the clutch condition because parts do wear #19 also

 

[dfrisk]

JEFF - What "wore out"in the clutch? The friction disk? Throw-out lever? I've NEVER had a friction disk or T/O lever wear out. I've had drive pin holes wear oblong, rattle more, disks get slightly thinner, or glaze over, but still used them. And remember, I used to blow snow with a K181 powered tractor with NO creeper, so clutch slipping was almost constant.

Only thing I can think that would disable a GD CC would be throw-out bearing FAILURE. Back when I had the WAY too stiff clutch spring in my 72 the T/O bearing failed while mowing one afternoon, the inner race was moved over till it was touching the outer race, which as you might expect, made the driveshaft "vibrate" REALLY bad.

My old 129 used to spit the dowel pin out of the frt driveshaft coupler every once in a while, even with a SS worm gear hose clamp over a brand new dowel pin, would push the pin right thru the clamp. That disabled the 129 right exactly where it was sitting probably a dozen times. Only ever had that happen with a GD twice due to breaking a spirol rollpin in a hard pull. Always the frt roll pin on the coupler on the rear of the driveshaft where it connects to the reduction housing. Takes at least 1000 hours to wear those holes in the driveshaft enough to break those pins using the tractor for hard pulling with at least ten HP or more.

There's many times more moving parts in a hydro, parts that slide against other parts, they put a filter on the hydro because the fluid gets dirty with metal particles, the hydro gets hot with friction heat and compressing hyd. fluid. There's NO filter on a GD... and they don;t get hot. PD #2 several people were boiling the Hy-Tran over in their hydro tractors the ground pulled so hard. But the GD's never had any problems.

Remember, Gear Drives RULE...Hydro's DROOL

 

[mconway]

here's my take on repairing the hood hinge on my 109. i used 5/16 keenserts from mcmaster-carr, i used them for years when i was working and never had any problems so i'll use what i know works, and they're easier than heli-coils.

 

[jbaker]

Harry, I am at work but it appears to be a normal 10 day 8 hour stretch, with a heavy work load due to PM work orders. I will doube check my measurements tomorrow.

Dennis, My 108 had a broken teaser spring, a worn out throw out bearing, clutch lever hanger,and clutch release lever.
My 128 had a worn out clutch hanger, clutch release lever, and throw out bearing.
I don't recall if or what the 1200 had worn on it when I sold it.

I have replaced some drive shaft pins on my hydros but time and cost wise its not much.

maybe the ones I had where used more than yours

dang streched forum help Charlie or Kraig

 

[hydroharry]

Jeff - I know your busy at work. When you get a chance please post the diameter of your 169 muffler can. I also appreciate you taking the time from your busy work schedule to get a dig in on the Gear Drives. Otherwise, Dennis will have everyone thinking all us Hydro Guys are a bunch of "whinners"

 

[jbaker]

No dig intended towards gear drives, just REAL life excperiences, no magic cubs on my property.

I was not the original owner of neither just the one that inherited the issues.


I will measure muffler and post tomorrow am

thank you,,, mods

 

[lpalma]

Ticking sound could also the large gear in the gear reduction housing missing a tooth. BTDT.

 

[kide]

Mike Conway:
Great post - I've been debating on which way to go on the stripped (almost) hood hinge bolts. What tools are required - on blind holes does that require a bottoming drill? How do ya drive 'em in?
(color me too lazy to Google Keenserts right now

)

 

[sblunier]

Hydros can have issues, Gear drives can have issues...........I've had both and both have had issues.

Right now I have a 782 that leaks like a sieve and a 582 with a jumpy grabby clutch (teaser spring)....both need a bit of TLC, but neither are "fatal flaws".

They all have their issues, so.....buy several of each!!!!!!!

..........but jump on the hydro with hyd. lift and power steering most of the time because it is so %$^# handy and easy to use!!!!!!!

.....(had to get that in!!!!)

 

[jstorma]

I went, looked, studied, drove, looked some more, and studied some more.

This tractor has a creeper gear in it! Along with a spring assist and the lift bar for a sleeve hitch.

The electric clutch by itself does seem fine. It's definitely an electrical issue with a switch.

I did have a problem finding 2nd and 3rd when test driving it. The shifter seemed really loose. The owner told me I needed to view down the hole on top the transmission and grab back farther on the gear shift lever and follow that rather than use the actual grip on the handle. After quite a few trys I was able to find second and third with little effort.

The creeper shifted nicely. I did not hear any clicking noises in the transmission or creeper gear in all gears.

There was next to nothing of side to side play when I wiggled the drive shaft and clutch lever (#20 from my post at the bottom)

The owner did say the pins (#13) were thin and removed them years ago and built them back up with a welder and grinder. The actual friction clutch plate (#9) itself did not have the three pins holes wallowed out if they were it was minimal.

The only thing that really bothers me is the gear shift lever seems to move in any direction. In other words there was no definate "H" pattern.

I just finished looking at the parts look up at the gear shift levers. The serial number on the tractor is U67. The shift lever on it is the longer "Z" pattern for the newer tractors above U72***. I'd assume someone switched this over time. Is the new one better than the old? Maybe this is the problem not being compatable?


The drive clutch itself did not grab or jerk at all when letting it out. It seemed too smooth. I crawled under it and there does not seem to be a spring broke on the drive shaft. Tractor moved on its own but am questioning if it would slip under a pulling load. Maybe it might need adjustment.....

Besides the normal loose steering/axle the sheet metal was in good shape.

He used the tractor all year around for the past 14 years, had a 10" brinly plow to plow a large garden, mowed grass, and had a push blade in the winter.

I told him I was concerned about the loose gear shift lever and will get back to him tomorrow night.

What do you guys think about the gear shift issue? I'm still interested but concerned.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[nbextermueller]

Jim, it seems to be in other wish great shape. Fixing a loose shifter could be simple as fixing a roll pin or as difficult as finding a good used one (also not really difficult).

If you agree on the price, grab it and dig in.

 

[jchamberlin]

Jim, I'm with Nic, jump in and go for it. From what I remember reading in the Forum over the years, gear shift lever problems are easily resolved. I've never heard of one being a deal breaker. I also agree with Steve B. the Briggs 16 HP opposed twin is a powerful engine for its weight. I have several useful parts for that engine. If the need should arise, feel free to contact me.

Edit: Mike, those are amazing pictures. I don't know how you got such detailed, in-focus, close-ups. (You must be taking lessons from Kraig

.)

 

[mconway]

Hi Gerry, i'll give you everything i used. for the drill, use letter "X" drill, .397 dia. put slight countersink before tapping. then 7/16-14 tap, followed with 7/16-14 bottoming tap for blind hole. thread inserts in until slightly below flush, there is an installation tool that does cal'd install and sets the lock tabs but i just put 'em in and use a pin punch for tabs. on the hood the holes are in an area that is flat on one side and tapered on the other and they aren't centered up and down as seen in first pic so before drilling ...triple measure so you don't break thru the tapered side of hood. i just use a piece of wire to get depth then tape the drill for reference, but i guess a bottoming drill would solve that problem, didn't think of that. mcmaster-carr has everything just look for key-locking threaded inserts, gives drill size, installation tool if ya wanna go that route and they make thin wall, heavy wall etc. i used 18-8 thin walls.

 

[dfrisk]

JEFF - I've run GD CC's with broken teaser springs for YEARS... not a good excuse to say a GD CC is broke and can't run.

The T/O bearing will wear out the release lever if the bearing starts turning hard. It gives you plenty of notice by making much more noise when that happens.

The pivot bracket on my 1968 model 72 is still original, the holes have wore out-of round maybe 1/16th inch, and on the 1965 #70, the factory bracket maybe has a bit more wear, 5/64's inch maybe... both clutches work fine. Not a valid excuse to park the tractor either.

Common failure on the 1200 was the 3-pin driver plate, on the Q/L tractors, the engine moved around on the rubber mounts, and the plate flexed. which caused it to crack. NOT a good design.

I REALLY doubt your CC's were used more than my two old GD's. The 70 mowed TWO big farm yards a week for it's first 8 yrs, then mowed the biggest of the two yards for the next 34 yrs. It wore out the K161 Twice and the K181 once in those first eight years. My 72 was 13 yrs old when I got it, had a 2-3 yr old K181 in it,not sure what happened to the original K161, I replaced the K181 3 yrs later with a K241, and now a K321.

I'm just trying to keep the Pro-Hydro party "Fair and Balanced" so Jim S. gets a true picture of his new 582.

HARRY - I don't know about You and Jeff, but I know both your CC's are WHINNERS.

 

[sblunier]

Denny,

Even I own a 582...so they can't be all bad!!!!!

Jim,

Shifter fix is not difficult and well within reach of most of us here, even if the welding is farmed out......go for it!

Is it an AL rear end (Later MTD models, 5 bolt drawbar), or a CI unit like a 100 or 122 (3 bolt drawbar)?