Denny,
Bull hockey! That will be the day, LOL
Bull hockey! That will be the day, LOL
-
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Archive through January 24, 2011
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Tom H, Art, Myron,
There is another picture or two of that 660 PUP tractor, but slightly different. The one Tom posted appears to have the hood made from the front section of the Farmall Cub hood, and an IH emblem down on the "grill" section. The other pictures are of the right front side with the hood open, and one of the left side with the hood closed. The IH emblem on those two appears to be up on the top front of the hood and appears to be the same ornament as used on the 58 to 63 era Farmall Cubs. The hood on these two also appears to be made from the "gas Tank" portion of the Cub hood. I have been told the man in the pictures of all of them was a Louisville engineer (no longer living) named Al Hettinger. You will notice the engine is backwards in Tom's photo. The muffler is there but there is no carb on the left side and the oil pan drain is also on the left side. Don't know if the Pup is the first one or the Cubette was first, but do know from talking to William Teaford a few years ago that the "flat nose one came after the "Cub grill" version's. Also don't know if any of the "pups", Cubette's or the flat nose one actually ran or were just mock-ups. Neither Harrold Schramm, William Teaford, or Alan Wolka remember any of them being runners. As for the 660-PUP name, it's just a guess, but if it was the first one, at the time the Farmall and International 660 was the biggest tractor IH built, the the yet un-named new garden tractor was going to be the smallest tractor they built, kinda of a Pup to the big dog you might say......but we may never know the true reason behind the name.
There is another picture or two of that 660 PUP tractor, but slightly different. The one Tom posted appears to have the hood made from the front section of the Farmall Cub hood, and an IH emblem down on the "grill" section. The other pictures are of the right front side with the hood open, and one of the left side with the hood closed. The IH emblem on those two appears to be up on the top front of the hood and appears to be the same ornament as used on the 58 to 63 era Farmall Cubs. The hood on these two also appears to be made from the "gas Tank" portion of the Cub hood. I have been told the man in the pictures of all of them was a Louisville engineer (no longer living) named Al Hettinger. You will notice the engine is backwards in Tom's photo. The muffler is there but there is no carb on the left side and the oil pan drain is also on the left side. Don't know if the Pup is the first one or the Cubette was first, but do know from talking to William Teaford a few years ago that the "flat nose one came after the "Cub grill" version's. Also don't know if any of the "pups", Cubette's or the flat nose one actually ran or were just mock-ups. Neither Harrold Schramm, William Teaford, or Alan Wolka remember any of them being runners. As for the 660-PUP name, it's just a guess, but if it was the first one, at the time the Farmall and International 660 was the biggest tractor IH built, the the yet un-named new garden tractor was going to be the smallest tractor they built, kinda of a Pup to the big dog you might say......but we may never know the true reason behind the name.
jchamberlin
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Charlie P --Thanks for the exploded view of the 782 Axle (PN 759-3270) highlighting the spacers, PN 750-3002 (see below), but I'm not convinced that replacing the spacers will "take up the slack" in the steering that I'm finding, especially on the LH side where the drag link engages the spindle. I'm thinking that the spacers need to be bushed inside the axle, as shown further below for Model 1782 (PN 759-3271).
And anyway, there is still significant play/wear at the 3/4" center pivot bolt. The only way I can see that ever going away is by bushing the axle and employing a shortened 7" bolt instead of a standard 5.25" to eliminate wear at the threads.
The only axle I can find that has bushings on the spindles is the one that fits a model 1782 (among others), PN 759-3271.
The fellows who wrote up the Super Steer Upgrade (Wyatt Compton & Ken Updike) that I found posted on your site appear to have used the axle that was originally fitted to a Model 1541 (among others), PN 759-3549, which employs a 3/8" ball joint on the drag link at the steering column.
While Randy Swartz, in his posts in the MTD/CCC Forum reports using an axle for a Model 1863, PN 719-3100. (The same part is listed for Model 1440 among others.) He had a time fitting the 1/2" ball joint on its drag link to the steering column.
Again, because (1) I can't find evidence that Super Steer Upgrade has been widely employed, (2) I have doubts about sourcing and fitting the parts, and (3) no doubt that the whole thing will likely wind up costing me over $1,000 (assuming use of new parts).
It seems to me, after my studies, that bushing the parts most prone to wear is the most elegant solution; guaranteed to eliminate all slop, while allowing for proper maintenance and, if necessary, replacement of worn parts.
I was just wondering if anyone else had tried the same approach to the problem.
Perhaps I'm obsessing about the issue. But I swear there is more play in my axle that mere replacement of existing parts will repair. Maybe other people don't have the same problems I'm finding. The tractor has certainly seen some use, the (non-functioning) hour meter stands at 0690.9.
The previous owner replaced the original Series I KT17, and I've replaced his B&S 16 HP replacment. But unit's Hydrostatic transmission seems solid, the deck works OK, the Kohler M18 looks like it will run forever. I love the way CC works, and I hate to give up on the project, yet I hate to compromise so much on the steering.
Bushing the axles seems like an easy out to me right now; either that or just throw it all back together and try to forget about it for another year.
And anyway, there is still significant play/wear at the 3/4" center pivot bolt. The only way I can see that ever going away is by bushing the axle and employing a shortened 7" bolt instead of a standard 5.25" to eliminate wear at the threads.
The only axle I can find that has bushings on the spindles is the one that fits a model 1782 (among others), PN 759-3271.
The fellows who wrote up the Super Steer Upgrade (Wyatt Compton & Ken Updike) that I found posted on your site appear to have used the axle that was originally fitted to a Model 1541 (among others), PN 759-3549, which employs a 3/8" ball joint on the drag link at the steering column.
While Randy Swartz, in his posts in the MTD/CCC Forum reports using an axle for a Model 1863, PN 719-3100. (The same part is listed for Model 1440 among others.) He had a time fitting the 1/2" ball joint on its drag link to the steering column.
Again, because (1) I can't find evidence that Super Steer Upgrade has been widely employed, (2) I have doubts about sourcing and fitting the parts, and (3) no doubt that the whole thing will likely wind up costing me over $1,000 (assuming use of new parts).
It seems to me, after my studies, that bushing the parts most prone to wear is the most elegant solution; guaranteed to eliminate all slop, while allowing for proper maintenance and, if necessary, replacement of worn parts.
I was just wondering if anyone else had tried the same approach to the problem.
Perhaps I'm obsessing about the issue. But I swear there is more play in my axle that mere replacement of existing parts will repair. Maybe other people don't have the same problems I'm finding. The tractor has certainly seen some use, the (non-functioning) hour meter stands at 0690.9.
The previous owner replaced the original Series I KT17, and I've replaced his B&S 16 HP replacment. But unit's Hydrostatic transmission seems solid, the deck works OK, the Kohler M18 looks like it will run forever. I love the way CC works, and I hate to give up on the project, yet I hate to compromise so much on the steering.
Bushing the axles seems like an easy out to me right now; either that or just throw it all back together and try to forget about it for another year.
JEREMIAH - The first installation of that Super Steer axle was done in my shop. I helped Wyatt install it. Pretty sure we used ALL 3/8" hiem joints on his tierods. And Wyatt said the axle was from a 1541, but other CC's of that vintage used about the same axle & components.
Been my experience that as long as the pivot bolt gets greased regularly, every 10 or so operation hours like the manual says, that most of the wear will be on the pivot bolt or pin. I have seen spindles get loose in NF frt axles, but if I was going to machine and install bronze bushings, I would make them as thin of wall as possible. You machine bigger bores for the OD of the bushings your reducing the strength of the axle.
If we knew how much actual play or movement you have in your 8782's frt axle We could give you a better idea how involved the repair could be. These things don't have rack & pinion steering, 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn of free movement in the steering wheel was common even on new tractors.
Been my experience that as long as the pivot bolt gets greased regularly, every 10 or so operation hours like the manual says, that most of the wear will be on the pivot bolt or pin. I have seen spindles get loose in NF frt axles, but if I was going to machine and install bronze bushings, I would make them as thin of wall as possible. You machine bigger bores for the OD of the bushings your reducing the strength of the axle.
If we knew how much actual play or movement you have in your 8782's frt axle We could give you a better idea how involved the repair could be. These things don't have rack & pinion steering, 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn of free movement in the steering wheel was common even on new tractors.
Jeremiah C.
You want to do a fast down and dirty retrofit, grab a 1811 axle and steering column and be done with.
Everything is pretty much a bolt and go. BTDT
You want to do a fast down and dirty retrofit, grab a 1811 axle and steering column and be done with.
Everything is pretty much a bolt and go. BTDT
mgonitzke
Well-known member
Charlie-
That's not what the 1811's came with from the factory. That's an early cyclops front axle.
That's not what the 1811's came with from the factory. That's an early cyclops front axle.
Matt G.
I took it off a 1811 bought from the original owner!
And since I can't go the factory and ask someone if it did or did not, and neither can you.
We'll just have to go with what I know for a fact!
Under Edit,
To add a little, we have no idea what the dealers or the factory added or took away from Cubs along the line.
But the fact remains that the OFF TOPIC 1811 is still the best fastest and easiest way to get a super steer axle setup.
I took it off a 1811 bought from the original owner!
And since I can't go the factory and ask someone if it did or did not, and neither can you.
We'll just have to go with what I know for a fact!
Under Edit,
To add a little, we have no idea what the dealers or the factory added or took away from Cubs along the line.
But the fact remains that the OFF TOPIC 1811 is still the best fastest and easiest way to get a super steer axle setup.
lpalma
Well-known member
Lots of good reading,and pictures too!
When I painted my original,I put most of the parts on the frame and painted it up.
When I painted my original,I put most of the parts on the frame and painted it up.
mgonitzke
Well-known member
Charlie-
Yeah, we don't know what happened to that tractor, but if he goes and buys an axle from an 1811, there's a 99.9% chance he's going to get another of what he already has. I've had an 1811 and a few others in that series, looked at/bid on probably close to a dozen more, and not a single one had that later axle. They all had the WF front axle the 782 and so on had.
He'd be better off looking for a 1541, 1860, 1861, 1862, or 1535 since those all should have had them from the factory.
Yeah, we don't know what happened to that tractor, but if he goes and buys an axle from an 1811, there's a 99.9% chance he's going to get another of what he already has. I've had an 1811 and a few others in that series, looked at/bid on probably close to a dozen more, and not a single one had that later axle. They all had the WF front axle the 782 and so on had.
He'd be better off looking for a 1541, 1860, 1861, 1862, or 1535 since those all should have had them from the factory.
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wmakowicki
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Steven Bauer
Do you eat off the floor or do surgery in your shop?
WOW you have a very clean garage
Do you eat off the floor or do surgery in your shop?
WOW you have a very clean garage
jchamberlin
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Matt, Charlie, Dennis: Thanks for the discussion of front axle issues. Like I said, I still have too many questions about the "upgrade" route. Cub Cadets aren't falling off trees around here. I think I'll hold off on doing an upgrade until I have the proper part in my hands.
Dennis: Your response was most helpful. Your point about measuring respective IDs and ODs is a good one. I'll update everyone with measurements tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'll research standard bronze bushings available from McMaster-Carr.
Thanks again, everyone.
Dennis: Your response was most helpful. Your point about measuring respective IDs and ODs is a good one. I'll update everyone with measurements tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'll research standard bronze bushings available from McMaster-Carr.
Thanks again, everyone.
jchamberlin
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Footnote on Front Axles in Model 1811:
According to Cub Cadet Parts Lookup the axle for all Model 1811 is PN 759-3270 the same as the axle installed in my Model 782 SN 714899. Models 1811 and 1812 were manufactured with SN ranging from 756,300 to 799,999.
According to Cub Cadet Parts Lookup the axle for all Model 1811 is PN 759-3270 the same as the axle installed in my Model 782 SN 714899. Models 1811 and 1812 were manufactured with SN ranging from 756,300 to 799,999.
sblunier
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- Steve Blunier "Mr. Plow" (Central IL)
Jeremiah,
Before going any further, try this.
Get 2 or 3ea 3/4" washers, take off the castle nut on the pivot bolt, install 2 washers and draw everything up fairly tight. If the cotter key won't go in, drop back to one washer.
What happens with the std bolt length is that the nut bottom on the threads before it tightens up the frame "ears" that help pilot the axle. Installing the washer (or 2) moves the castle nut further out on the bolt, allowing it to squeeze tighter on the frame ears, more effectively limiting axle movement. I have done this 3 times with success on various 82 series.
See Pic (taken during PS and Super Steer upgrade on my 782)
Then, replace all of the steering ends...heim joints or std. ball type rod ends....you will kill most of the linkage slop with these 2 methods. the rest you will have to take out of the box (sometimes impossible as Denny said).
Before going any further, try this.
Get 2 or 3ea 3/4" washers, take off the castle nut on the pivot bolt, install 2 washers and draw everything up fairly tight. If the cotter key won't go in, drop back to one washer.
What happens with the std bolt length is that the nut bottom on the threads before it tightens up the frame "ears" that help pilot the axle. Installing the washer (or 2) moves the castle nut further out on the bolt, allowing it to squeeze tighter on the frame ears, more effectively limiting axle movement. I have done this 3 times with success on various 82 series.
See Pic (taken during PS and Super Steer upgrade on my 782)
Then, replace all of the steering ends...heim joints or std. ball type rod ends....you will kill most of the linkage slop with these 2 methods. the rest you will have to take out of the box (sometimes impossible as Denny said).
sblunier
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Jeremiah,
Trick #2
NOTE: pic should say pivot in CASTING, not bushing.
You must force the bolt spindle and bushing/spacer to act as one unit, by tightening them in firm compression. You may have to dress the top of the axle to accomplish this. If allowed to work loose, the spindles will wear into the bolts, notching them and creating slop. tightening them forces 6,7,8,9 to move as ONE inside the cast bore of the axle, eliminating slop between 6,7 & 9.
Don't be afraid to dress the axle (on the top side to avoid uneven wear/pressure on the bottom where the load is applied). IH didn't always get these dimension right. If it gets tight to turn befoe the bolt tightens up and "bottoms" on the bushing, the axle needs dressing.
A good wire wheeling of the existing bushings #8, and clean out of the axle bores will insure clean fresh grease and no binding when the "locked down" ASSEMBLY pivots in the axle.
I have also used this trick with success on several tractors...
Trick #2
NOTE: pic should say pivot in CASTING, not bushing.
You must force the bolt spindle and bushing/spacer to act as one unit, by tightening them in firm compression. You may have to dress the top of the axle to accomplish this. If allowed to work loose, the spindles will wear into the bolts, notching them and creating slop. tightening them forces 6,7,8,9 to move as ONE inside the cast bore of the axle, eliminating slop between 6,7 & 9.
Don't be afraid to dress the axle (on the top side to avoid uneven wear/pressure on the bottom where the load is applied). IH didn't always get these dimension right. If it gets tight to turn befoe the bolt tightens up and "bottoms" on the bushing, the axle needs dressing.
A good wire wheeling of the existing bushings #8, and clean out of the axle bores will insure clean fresh grease and no binding when the "locked down" ASSEMBLY pivots in the axle.
I have also used this trick with success on several tractors...
I believe that people have the wrong idea on the wide frame axle and what turns inside of what. The bolt is used to tighten the spacer tight between the top and bottom of the knuckle. This assembly then turns inside the cast axle. The threads of the bolt should never get damaged since nothing is turning on them. I have seen many cubs that have the bottom hole wore out on the knuckle because the bolt was never tightened properly.
Steve, you were quicker than me.
Steve, you were quicker than me.
