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Archive through January 07, 2010
- Thread starter kide
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Thanks for the info Aaron. I know that it might be hard to make the tactor run the loader and mower at the same time. But I don't have the space to keep two tractors at my house. I guss that I will have to think this over, long and hard. I already plain on moving the battery under the hood to make room for the hydro cylinder for my rear three point. There might still be room for the loader pump. I guess we will see. If you would, do you have a picture of the way you build your sub frame. Thanks
I picked up the loader tonight, so know I just have to find time to work on it.
About the v bar chains. They are great for ice. But I found that I only need the chains for the snowblower attchment. Adding weight seems to work fine for plowing. They are very hard on the roads and maybe also the tractor. If you have to drive it a long ways to get to were you need to plow. I had to drive around a city block to get to the front of the house. But they do work get.
I picked up the loader tonight, so know I just have to find time to work on it.
About the v bar chains. They are great for ice. But I found that I only need the chains for the snowblower attchment. Adding weight seems to work fine for plowing. They are very hard on the roads and maybe also the tractor. If you have to drive it a long ways to get to were you need to plow. I had to drive around a city block to get to the front of the house. But they do work get.
Kendall, that relief valve is way too big for the application. These valves are rated for 5 gpm. Price probably won't go much lower than that for an adjustable relief, though. On the other hand, it isn't really necessary for it to be adjustable.
Aaron, check out the discussion in the vault at https://www.ihcubcadet.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.pl?file=/106/181091.html&lm=1258138393 and following. I posted links to the Cessna/Vickers catalog. There's also some pricing info that I got through Motion Industries, but those prices are for the valves without the built in relief. The 3-spool valve was $188. I'd expect the relief valve option on a spool valve to be much less expensive than a stand-alone relief, not to mention the cleaner installation. If you're not concerned being able more of the same valve later, the surplus houses usually have a pretty good selection of small Cessna valves that would work for you.
Jerry
Aaron, check out the discussion in the vault at https://www.ihcubcadet.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.pl?file=/106/181091.html&lm=1258138393 and following. I posted links to the Cessna/Vickers catalog. There's also some pricing info that I got through Motion Industries, but those prices are for the valves without the built in relief. The 3-spool valve was $188. I'd expect the relief valve option on a spool valve to be much less expensive than a stand-alone relief, not to mention the cleaner installation. If you're not concerned being able more of the same valve later, the surplus houses usually have a pretty good selection of small Cessna valves that would work for you.
Jerry
kide
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- Gerry Ide
Jerry:
If you slide down that page, there's a Prince 1/2 " 16 GPH for $49.00. I'm not an engineer, but AFAIK, higher flow capacity won't hurt, the valve's still gonna open at the same PSI. I was presuming that you could put the bypass on a tee on the inlet to the control valve body..
If you slide down that page, there's a Prince 1/2 " 16 GPH for $49.00. I'm not an engineer, but AFAIK, higher flow capacity won't hurt, the valve's still gonna open at the same PSI. I was presuming that you could put the bypass on a tee on the inlet to the control valve body..
Kendall,
Missed the smaller one. I just looked at the one the link took me to. Maybe I shouldn't say the big one is too big, just way overkill. It will work, but it will take up a lot of valuable real estate getting the job done.
Price is lower because of design, not size. Judging by package shape, I'd say it's a direct acting relief valve--simple spring poppet type. They work, but there can be a big difference between the pressure where they open and the pressure developed at their full rated flow.
The more expensive one is a pilot operated design. It uses a balanced piston to control relief opening so that variation in bypass flow has essentially no effect on pressure.
Either style could work, but I'd want to be sure that the direct acting style would only allow about a 100 psi max rise at 5 gpm when set at 1000-1200 psi. The relief valve should go ahead of the spool valves and dump excess pressure to tank.
One other thing... I'm a little confused about terminology on this one, so I'll just explain the function. Be sure that your valving is set up so that when the spools are in the neutral position the cylinder ports are closed and flow is passed through the valves back to tank at low pressure. On an individual spool this is called tandem centered, but I'm not sure if it's accomplished entirely in the spool or in a separate circuit in a multiple spool manifold. I think there's also another common term for this type of spool. At any rate, when you're not doing actual work with the hydraulics, you don't want the excess flow to bypass through the relief valve. It will build heat and waste power.
With 1-1/2" being the minimum bore cylinder that's readily available and given the stroke lengths that are needed for loaders on Cub Cadets, the sweet spot for hydraulic system design is approximately 5 gpm at 1000-1200 psi. Accounting for inefficiencies, this takes about 3.5 hp. That works out well for the existing flywheel pulley which is capable of tranferring about 4 to 4.5 hp at 3600 rpm.
If you're not going to run a loader, a lower flow rate would be sufficient.
Jerry
Missed the smaller one. I just looked at the one the link took me to. Maybe I shouldn't say the big one is too big, just way overkill. It will work, but it will take up a lot of valuable real estate getting the job done.
Price is lower because of design, not size. Judging by package shape, I'd say it's a direct acting relief valve--simple spring poppet type. They work, but there can be a big difference between the pressure where they open and the pressure developed at their full rated flow.
The more expensive one is a pilot operated design. It uses a balanced piston to control relief opening so that variation in bypass flow has essentially no effect on pressure.
Either style could work, but I'd want to be sure that the direct acting style would only allow about a 100 psi max rise at 5 gpm when set at 1000-1200 psi. The relief valve should go ahead of the spool valves and dump excess pressure to tank.
One other thing... I'm a little confused about terminology on this one, so I'll just explain the function. Be sure that your valving is set up so that when the spools are in the neutral position the cylinder ports are closed and flow is passed through the valves back to tank at low pressure. On an individual spool this is called tandem centered, but I'm not sure if it's accomplished entirely in the spool or in a separate circuit in a multiple spool manifold. I think there's also another common term for this type of spool. At any rate, when you're not doing actual work with the hydraulics, you don't want the excess flow to bypass through the relief valve. It will build heat and waste power.
With 1-1/2" being the minimum bore cylinder that's readily available and given the stroke lengths that are needed for loaders on Cub Cadets, the sweet spot for hydraulic system design is approximately 5 gpm at 1000-1200 psi. Accounting for inefficiencies, this takes about 3.5 hp. That works out well for the existing flywheel pulley which is capable of tranferring about 4 to 4.5 hp at 3600 rpm.
If you're not going to run a loader, a lower flow rate would be sufficient.
Jerry
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Aaron,
What tractor did the valve come from? The JD 400 valves had a relief in them and the 140, 420, 430 valves didn't. You could look up on JDParts to see what is available there or check out Jerry's catalog. I'll have to see if I still have my 400 valve or not to see what it looks like.
Surplus center has a nice 5gpm Cessna 3 spool valve that isn't too bad generally speaking. I think it is around $300 and has an adjustable relief if I remember correctly.
Jerry,
The term you are looking for is an open center valve when talking about these little valve. You do have to be careful about that too. I am not sure if all the GT's are open center valves or not. Just can't remember if I checked that the last time I was looking for a valve.
What tractor did the valve come from? The JD 400 valves had a relief in them and the 140, 420, 430 valves didn't. You could look up on JDParts to see what is available there or check out Jerry's catalog. I'll have to see if I still have my 400 valve or not to see what it looks like.
Surplus center has a nice 5gpm Cessna 3 spool valve that isn't too bad generally speaking. I think it is around $300 and has an adjustable relief if I remember correctly.
Jerry,
The term you are looking for is an open center valve when talking about these little valve. You do have to be careful about that too. I am not sure if all the GT's are open center valves or not. Just can't remember if I checked that the last time I was looking for a valve.
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Aaron,
Here is the Surplus Center Valve. This would be the easiest way to get what you need for sure.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2252010409233651&item=9-4503&catname=hydraulic
Here is the Surplus Center Valve. This would be the easiest way to get what you need for sure.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2252010409233651&item=9-4503&catname=hydraulic
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Aaron,
Here is the Surplus Center Valve. This would be the easiest way to get what you need for sure.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2252010409233651&item=9-4503&catname=hydraulic
Here is the Surplus Center Valve. This would be the easiest way to get what you need for sure.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2252010409233651&item=9-4503&catname=hydraulic
John,
According to my Vickers hydraulics manual, open center is definitely not the correct term. An open center valve connect the A, B, P & T ports in the center position so it does bypass pressure to tank as desired, but it also drops the load. A tandem center connects P to T, but closes A & B.
However, I've found sources online that plainly state the open and tandem center are the same thing: P connected to T with A & B closed. So, whether or not the Surplus Center is using the terminology correctly is debatable. The schematic they show is not for an open centered valve (as defined by Vickers). As far as I can tell from the Vickers order form, that valve is not available with an open center.
The only thing that is becoming clearer to me is why there's so much confusion about the terminology.
Jerry
According to my Vickers hydraulics manual, open center is definitely not the correct term. An open center valve connect the A, B, P & T ports in the center position so it does bypass pressure to tank as desired, but it also drops the load. A tandem center connects P to T, but closes A & B.
However, I've found sources online that plainly state the open and tandem center are the same thing: P connected to T with A & B closed. So, whether or not the Surplus Center is using the terminology correctly is debatable. The schematic they show is not for an open centered valve (as defined by Vickers). As far as I can tell from the Vickers order form, that valve is not available with an open center.
The only thing that is becoming clearer to me is why there's so much confusion about the terminology.
Jerry
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- Aaron Schmidt - Xtreme Motorworks
John, Thanks for the link. can you believe what they get for that stuff. Sucks cause i paid $800 for my loader, and a new valve would be $400 to my door. It just dont seem right... LOL
Dang it takes money to play in this play ground doesnt it!
Dang it takes money to play in this play ground doesnt it!
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- Aaron Schmidt - Xtreme Motorworks
Kendell, now that looks like it would be usefull in any application. Also a good insurance. Cheaper than replacing a pump or cylinders. no matter what i do i think that i might put that on just to be safe.
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Aaron,
Hydraulics are not cheap. You can find stuff used on ebay if you know what you are looking for. If you need it quick you will pay. If you can send me a couple pics of your valve I can tell you if it is the one with the relief in it. Your valve has load checks in it so that isn't an issue.
Hydraulics are not cheap. You can find stuff used on ebay if you know what you are looking for. If you need it quick you will pay. If you can send me a couple pics of your valve I can tell you if it is the one with the relief in it. Your valve has load checks in it so that isn't an issue.
Aaron~
Just my $.02 but I would try what you got first. Shouldn't be hard to watch the cylinders and after a bit you'll know how far they go. A momentary pause in reaction time from when the cylinder is fully extended/retracted before the valve goes back to neutral should be ok.
Just my $.02 but I would try what you got first. Shouldn't be hard to watch the cylinders and after a bit you'll know how far they go. A momentary pause in reaction time from when the cylinder is fully extended/retracted before the valve goes back to neutral should be ok.
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Dan,
What happens that one time someone holds onto the lever too long? Hydraulics aren't something to mess with. I design these things for a living and if you want to get messed up just take a chance. Plus I don't like wearing hydraulic fluid or buying new cylinders either. You need to follow the fundamentals and not just give it a try. If he's lucky he'll slip the belt or stall the engine before something blows.
What happens that one time someone holds onto the lever too long? Hydraulics aren't something to mess with. I design these things for a living and if you want to get messed up just take a chance. Plus I don't like wearing hydraulic fluid or buying new cylinders either. You need to follow the fundamentals and not just give it a try. If he's lucky he'll slip the belt or stall the engine before something blows.
John,
Sorry for thinking I knew more than I did when I made that last post. The more I study this, the more I'm realizing that mobile hydraulic valves are apparently an entirely different animal from the industrial hydraulic valves I'm used to dealing with. It hadn't clicked with me until today that we're actually dealing with 6-port valves here and the open center you're referring to has nothing to do with the A, B, P & T ports but the separate bypass circuit, correct?
Jerry
Sorry for thinking I knew more than I did when I made that last post. The more I study this, the more I'm realizing that mobile hydraulic valves are apparently an entirely different animal from the industrial hydraulic valves I'm used to dealing with. It hadn't clicked with me until today that we're actually dealing with 6-port valves here and the open center you're referring to has nothing to do with the A, B, P & T ports but the separate bypass circuit, correct?
Jerry
junderwood
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- John Underwood
Jerry,
No problem. I was waiting till I had time to find my Vickers book and take a look at what you were saying.
What I am talking about is there being a flow through path from P to T when no command for the work ports. You need this since the gear pump is always running and does not have it's own relief on it. You do need to have load checks on the work ports to use one on cylinders if you don't want the load to fall. Most of the GT valves have load checks since they operate cylinders. Most do not have relief since the pump has a relief built into it.
No problem. I was waiting till I had time to find my Vickers book and take a look at what you were saying.
What I am talking about is there being a flow through path from P to T when no command for the work ports. You need this since the gear pump is always running and does not have it's own relief on it. You do need to have load checks on the work ports to use one on cylinders if you don't want the load to fall. Most of the GT valves have load checks since they operate cylinders. Most do not have relief since the pump has a relief built into it.
dylschmidt
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- Darryl Schmidt
Over the last few weeks I have responded to some email requests for detailed photos and information
about my 1650-4. So thouht i would post here as well if anyone is interested
Here is a brief description of how and why I put the 1650-4 together. The project started in 2004. My goal was to make it look like I
thought it would if Cub Cadet had built a four wheel drive tractor.
This “rule” helped me along the way with decisions about what components to use and basic things like the placement of the front axle,
fenders, grill and other items unique to Cub Cadet.
The steering principle is simple. A ridged upper link connects the two halves and a lower link swivels at both the center point of the tractor
and 14 inches to the rear. This allows or the articulation and the oscillation.
I mounted the Kohler K-341 engine, from the donor 1650, in its original location and connected a u-joint drive shaft to a center mounted gearbox.
The front hydro is coupled to the front of the gear-box and the rear hydro is driven by a 9 spline shaft direct from the back of the gear-box.
One of the problems was connecting the hydro-speed controls together. On this point I spent more time sitting on my thinking stool than I did working.
After trying a few different systems, I ended up building a mechanical linkage mounted at the center articulation point of the tractor.
The rear hydro is ported and provides the hydraulic for the power steering using the single lift cylinder from the 1650.
This has been the most rewarding project I have ever done. Each and every step was a challenge and sometimes determination alone is what “got’er done”.
The 1650-4 was declared complete in the spring of 2007.
If you have a project in mind, go for it! It’s your project, it’s your vision. Build it the way you want to and have fun doing it!
This photo was taken at the 2009 Red Power Round Up at Madison in front of a very rare IH 4300
about my 1650-4. So thouht i would post here as well if anyone is interested
Here is a brief description of how and why I put the 1650-4 together. The project started in 2004. My goal was to make it look like I
thought it would if Cub Cadet had built a four wheel drive tractor.
This “rule” helped me along the way with decisions about what components to use and basic things like the placement of the front axle,
fenders, grill and other items unique to Cub Cadet.
The steering principle is simple. A ridged upper link connects the two halves and a lower link swivels at both the center point of the tractor
and 14 inches to the rear. This allows or the articulation and the oscillation.
I mounted the Kohler K-341 engine, from the donor 1650, in its original location and connected a u-joint drive shaft to a center mounted gearbox.
The front hydro is coupled to the front of the gear-box and the rear hydro is driven by a 9 spline shaft direct from the back of the gear-box.
One of the problems was connecting the hydro-speed controls together. On this point I spent more time sitting on my thinking stool than I did working.
After trying a few different systems, I ended up building a mechanical linkage mounted at the center articulation point of the tractor.
The rear hydro is ported and provides the hydraulic for the power steering using the single lift cylinder from the 1650.
This has been the most rewarding project I have ever done. Each and every step was a challenge and sometimes determination alone is what “got’er done”.
The 1650-4 was declared complete in the spring of 2007.
If you have a project in mind, go for it! It’s your project, it’s your vision. Build it the way you want to and have fun doing it!
This photo was taken at the 2009 Red Power Round Up at Madison in front of a very rare IH 4300
dylschmidt
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- Darryl Schmidt
Dave, So far its got a pretty easy life, blading the driveway and giving the grandkids rides.
I have plans drawn for a tandom disk and have collected some of the parts.
A few years ago I built 2 auxilary side mowers out of cadet 85 riders that I pull on
each side of my 1450.
I would like to build another complete set to pull behind the 1650-4. The mower width will be 126inch..
I have plans drawn for a tandom disk and have collected some of the parts.
A few years ago I built 2 auxilary side mowers out of cadet 85 riders that I pull on
each side of my 1450.
I would like to build another complete set to pull behind the 1650-4. The mower width will be 126inch..
