Archive through February 07, 2012

[digger]

Denny,
Not to worry,Cub Cadet has that covered.

 

[jchamberlin]

All: great discussion on the 169, glad to see Art Atay finally chime in. Even though I'm on my phone, I've got to chime in on the Running/Idle RPM: I think its important to run them full speed if there is any load on them: but how fast should the top end be? I have to rely on engine specifications. It can be as challenging to get the top end right as to get the idle speed right. I have never been able to get my M18 to run faster than 3600 or slower than 1500 RPM; I haven't really gotten into K321 in the 149 yet.

I do wonder how much idling is tolerable. When I'm working in the yard loading and unloading wood, the tractor probably spends more time idling than running. I compromise by using a "high idle" like a Greyhound bus at a meal stop.

 

[jchamberlin]

Also: Low ash oil runs cleaner and overcomes valve sticking / roigh running

 

[hydroharry]

Dennis, Wayne and Kraig - and another thing on the QLs, the Op Manual shows the max throttle 3600rpm No Load, 3400 Load. You have to wonder why they reduced it by 200 (it was 3800 and 3600 for the xx8/xx9 engines except the 169). Matt mentioned seeing a difference in mowing deck performance with just 200rpm difference - and I agreed. I actually think I set up my 1450 at 3800 no load and ran around 3600 mowing.

Matt - I've heard the 2000 hr ratings for the entire engine before but lots of these engines just keep on runnin' and runnin' and runnin. Is your recommendation to change the rod anyway at 2000 hours? Any thoughts on that rod for the K361 which I undestand can be used in the K341 and maybe even other K's. (I think it's forged instead of cast or something - don't recall exactly).

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[mgonitzke]

Harry-

I replace the rod on any engine I take apart that far; it's usually necessary anyway since the rod is generally worn enough to prevent its reuse.

The forged rod should have a longer life because of residual compressive stress in it from the forging process. I can't comment on how much longer it should last, though.

 

[dtanner]

Matt Gonitzke

I have often wondered if I was to machine an engine insert of the same material as car engine cranks use if that material would make a K engine last longer before a rebuild. Or would an insert just be over kill and not needed at 36oo rpm

On second thought they still would have the problem of the cylinder going out of round

 

[mgonitzke]

Don-

A rod bearing insert isn't going to keep the rod from fatiguing and eventually breaking as a result. I'd rather have it wear out before it breaks...

 

[wshytle]

Matt-

You're exactly right, according to the manual, not to agree with me. I guess I should have added "don't try this yourself". I just can't justify running around the yard pulling a light yard trailer at WOT, or 3600 rpm in order to make sure my engine doesn't overheat. I have gone by ear or sound for years with all sorts of equipment and never thrown a rod. I am one to make sure the oil is right and at least fairly clean. I'll change the oil in anything in a heartbeat if it's dirty...especially in these old Kohlers. I also throttle down to where I want the engine to be when I start it again when it's time to shut the engine down. I guess it's just quirks I have developed through my learning. I've never been one to "follow the book" to the last letter but I would recommend to anyone that asked to go by the manual as closely as possible.

When mowing, I'm probably pretty close to WOT but not quite. My secret there is sharp blades and my cut grass looks fine. I don't see how a couple hundred rpms would make that big of a difference. When Dad brought the 128 home in '73 I was the operator he had in mind. I put many, many hours on that tractor and wasn't as "educated" as I am now about what it required as a machine. I just kept the blades sharp, oil clean, and ran the throttle by ear. I learned then there's a lot of common sense involved too.

It also seems to me that if temperature was that big of a deal running less than WOT IH/Kohler would have installed at least an idiot light or temp gauge for a warning...especially with the aluminum head.

I/we don't have snow enough here to justify a thrower but I understand WOT with something of that nature; it's what's best for the engine by far. I've heard these Kohlers are thirty year engines but I can't believe one will run/last that long using WOT all of the time. I know I wouldn't last. I also don't run tractors when it's 95* out or hotter unless it's just for a small job. I overheat too easily; to heck with the tractor in that weather.

I will run higher rpms on a hydro than a GD like most do I'm sure. On GDs I actually control speed with the throttle sometimes but never lug the engine down. The hydros demand the rpms for proper running (as engineers know) and I'm sure that's documented in the manual as well.

Plus, the older I get the slower I need to go.

 

[dtanner]

Wayne Shytle

I use wot when I have a bucket full of soil to lift with my 129 loader , BUT never wot when i`am moving the tractor with a full bucket. It would be to hard to get a safe speed that I would not upset the loader. Snow blowing with my 1512 I do use wot but that is it. I have tuned sod with my 149 and it did not need wot to do that job.On my 100 gear drive I use the throttle to give me the ground speed and power I need to do what I want the tractor to do.No wot for it also.If I want to idle any tractor I do set them to run faster than they would at the low setting for idle. And I do set the throttle up after I shut them down for starting. I have found they start faster if they are given a little throttle.Some day I must check to see what the sweet spot that I set the 149 at to do most chores I ask of it.I will have to use the tack and see what that rpm is.I have set up a few carbs to run at a fast idle and get that rpm smooth before I try for the idle speed I want, It just seems to be easier to do it that way. Old and set in my ways lol.

 

[sblunier]

I'm not advocating running around the yard with a light cart at WOT, and I've throttled back a gear drive when plowing behind someone slow....but to Wayne's point, one must have a "trained ear" to make sure you are not lugging the engine below healthy levels.

I never tune to the "spec" on low idle, and for that matter very rarely ever check low idle speed, but would venture to guess that all of my Kohlers, twins and singles, idle around 800 rpm...just enough that they won't die if the governor stumbles a little here and there... My big test for idle speed settings is smooth transition. Idle must be high enough and "fat enough" to provide quick and smooth response to an instant movement of the throttle to the WOT position without hesetation or stumbling...EVERY TIME. I set the idle and idle jet as low as I can and still maintain that instant and smooth transition. (I think a lot of people miss that when they tune their smnall engines).

Once I get them warmed up and the governor set to 3650-3700 rpm, I split the difference with the high idle jet and then go one strong 1/4 turn rich. A lean carb setting under heavy load spikes engine temps and hinders governor performance. I always like to error on the side of "fat" with a small engine.

I completely agree with those who have stated that frequent maintenance, proper oil level, and clean oil are a must. It was beat in my head as a kid (by my IH diesel mechanic father) that I would never be blamed for an engine failure (on anything) if I could look him in the eye and say I checked the oil before I used it. I try to practice that habit on everything I run. The stick gets pulled before any serious work is done.

 

[hydroharry]

Matt - thanks for all your information. Seems like we should be right in the era where most of these Kohler K's should be needing rebuilding or be throwing rods. When I ran my 1450 in CT I figured roughly between an hour to 2 a week for mowing time over 9 months put me at 60-70 hours plus 3 really variable months of snow time for a rough total of 100 hours a year run time. On the basis of 2000hr engine life the engine should be good for 20 years if properly taken care of. I assume a good complete rebuild should provide another 20 years. On average, those guys in other parts of the country should get similar life (more snow less mowing time and vice versa). I didn't use a tiller or plow, but did occassional pull a cart full of stones, and a few other things - so my best guess would be 15-25 years of life. From this I must say many of the Kohlers around have to be running on borrowed time, and before we start hearing about windows in the blocks it seems many of us should be recommending a good complete overhaul to insure these engines keep running, unless there is some valid proof that it has been done sometime in the past. I know parts are still available but the Kohler stuff is becoming really hard to find - and for my money if it ran 20 years and I want another 20 out of it I'll be going for the original parts, as I did with my K341A. Thanks again for all your input.

Steve B - On the old S/G version Kohler K's I know you can get a decent 800 rpm idle from the 10hp and most 12hp's and not get throttle up stumble if the carb and engine are in good shape. I think it's harder on the 14hp and my 16 shakes to much at that speed. When you go to an Kohler AQS version like the QL series I don't think I could ever go below about 1200 or they shake to much side to side. The cradle upgrade came along after I got out of the QL series so I've only seen it in my son's 1650. Below about 1200 rpm's the swing back and forth of the shake is not as great but it still shakes to much for my liking and seems much better around about 1500rpm's. Are all your engines fresh rebuilds and fresh carbs when you set them up at 800? Also, there was discussion awhile back about setting the points and using static timing. I'm old school and like to use a timing light. I have to think the light is still more exact than static. Which method are you using?? And one more thing - when you set your carbs up, are you getting any black smoke when you push the throttle from idle to WO? Or are you leaning it back from that. It's my recollection that going that strong 1/4 to the fat side will give you some smoke.

Wayne - on cutting your grass around 3000 or 3200rpm's, if your grass isn't to tall or thick, meaning you're not cutting 3" off the top, and you don't go to fast with the tractor speed, then I'll bet it would probably cut fine if the blades are sharp. All this discussion about the engine temp rising makes me recall how the grass gets pull onto the fins and blocks the air flow. We've all probably seen some of these K's where you can't even see the fins because of all the grass blocking them. Obviously the engine doesn't fail right away (in most instances) but it certainly has to increase the wear on the internals. Overall it still amazes me these engines keep on running after all the abuse many have gotten. This makes me recall sometime in the distant past Dave Kirk mentioned give your engine a treat and change the oil at 20 hours run time. I guess that should be the next topic of discussion - how often does everyone change their oil?

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but alot of people unknowingly try to kill them)

 

[mgonitzke]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

It also seems to me that if temperature was that big of a deal running less than WOT IH/Kohler would have installed at least an idiot light or temp gauge for a warning...especially with the aluminum head.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

There would be no need for that because if the engine is run at full throttle, carb properly adjusted, and cooling fins kept clean, it's not going to overheat. Like I said before, it is designed to be run at 3600 RPM. I have pulled way too many engines apart that had burnt/melted/scored pistons from overheating to do anything but follow Kohler's operating instructions.

 

[wshytle]

Matt-

Thanks for the big letters; it really helps at my age. You're right again about going by the manual (as I mentioned). The only thing Kohler didn't mention in the manual was the fact they build a wonderful mouse motel. They never build them in the fins either. They build them down around the flywheel which chews them up and blows them into the fin area sometimes/most times unknowingly. After the engine starts to spit and sputter things become obvious. This is where the warning might have helped.

Steve-

I wasn't raised by a mechanic so adjusting and such have all been self taught. As far as "lugging" the engine goes I think most would know when to idle up a tad. That's part of the common sense thing I mentioned. Why wouldn't you go to a lower gear when plowing if the tractor in front of you is slower? Isn't that their purpose? That way he/she could get ahead a little and your engine wouldn't risk overheating.

Harry-

I never wait until the grass is very high. If it gets away from me I'll mow the area twice or creep along making sure the grass isn't clogging up things and exhausting well. Again, sharp blades are the ticket here. If the grass is even a little damp I just don't mow. Plus, I don't do anything fast nowadays.

 

[bjamison]

Update on my 1650

I got luck - I think. When I picked-up the tractor, the PO gave me a box with parts taken off the tractor. One of the things I noticed was there was an extra PTO and muffler.

Last night I got out the box in search of isolators and here are some pics of what I found:

These are the replacement isolators the PO couldn't get to work - bolt was to short. These are the purple/red isolator and they are hard as a brick. Ever seen one of these?

I also found 16 isolators - and I thought, what if I had 8 bad bottom and 8 good top isolators, if so - I'm gold!

Here is a pic of the bad isolators:

Here are a couple of pics of the good isolators - do you think they are useable?

The good isolators are still flexible and not cracked. They are scuffed at the top as shown in the pic, but I think are otherwise fine.

Next question:

How do I install these on the steel insert - large end up as on the left or down as in on the right? I found them both ways - see pic below.

Thanks!!!
Bill

 

[wshytle]

Bill-

To begin with, there are eight total, four on top and four on the bottom. You have some decent ones there but if you were to just get a new set of OEMs, which the sponsors have, and do the rail mod, which is in the FAQs, you might never have to deal with them again. I'd throw those red ones away. I don't see where they might benefit you at all. If you go that route I'd use softer ones like Charlie showed. I'd also make sure the engine isn't leaking oil from bad seals or blow-by. Oil and rubber don't seem to get along here. And don't ignore the snubbers...they are important as Matt pointed out earlier.

 

[bjamison]

"To begin with, there are eight total, four on top and four on the bottom."

I hear you Wayne. I understand I need a total of 8 isolators, the box of stuff I got with the tractor had 16 - from my tractor and another one.

From some of the advice I've got here, it's OK to use the old isolators off the top and reuse them on the bottom - if they are in good shape. Since there are two sets of isolators, 8 each, it looks like I can glean 8 good "top" isolators. That's kind of where I'm coming from. I'm definately going to do a cradle mod too.

Bill

 

[aaytay]

Wow, great conversations..

OK, time to stir the pot with a question I've always wondered...

If Cub Cadet sells "Low Ash" oil, is that implying that all of the other oil I can buy at my local China-Mart is "High Ash"?

I guess what I'm asking is:
Is there truly a difference in this Cub Cadet oil that makes it have a lower ash-content if it gets "cooked" or is that just a slang trade term they have always labeled their oil with to make it seem like you need the special Cub Cadet oil when you bought a brand-spanking new 169 in Sept of 1974?

I'm guessing nobody here on our forum really knows the chemical make up of this oil compared to most name brands, so maybe the question remains rhetorical, but I'll add one more clinker to the question above...

In the KOHLER manual I'm looking at, there is no mention of using a "Low Ash" oil:

"Oil Type
Use high quality detergent oil of API (American Petroleum Institute) service class SG or SH. Select the viscosity based on the air temperature at the time of operation."

Charlie, What "grade" is listed on those bottles of CC-oil you have there?

And more from the Kohler manual to further stir the pot:

"Straight 30-weight oil is preferred. SAE 1OW-30 oil is not recommended above 32deg-F. Using this oil substantially increases oil consumption and combustion chamber deposits.

NOTE: Using other than service class SG or SH oil or extending oil change intervals longer than recommended can cause engine damage."

 

[digger]

Art,
It's straight SAE30.

 

[kphill]

Art, I was taught that the purpose of the "low ash" was to help with the sticky exaust valve problem the K-Series suffers from..It helps keep the build-up of carbon off the valve stem...

 

[dfrisk]

ART & ALL - According to "The Tractor Doctor" in RPM, (Ron O'Niell from OshKosh, WI) the IH low ash oil reduces and will actually clean the oil deposits burned onto the exh valve stem which is the real cause of exh valve sticking on gasoline engines. Exh valves operate around 1200-1500 degrees F which cooks the oil into a hard black deposit inside the valve guide that you have to scrape pretty hard to remove.

Other oils are also "low ash", most synthetics are, but they aren't straight 30W.

IH developed their low ash oil back in the early 1960's when the 460 & 560 gas tractors started burning exh valves due to sticking because of these deposits, the exh valves wouldn't totally close and let the heat from the heads of the valve dissipate into the valve seats which caused them to burn up. It's good oil.

I did a search of this website, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ and didn't find anything on low ash oil but about any other question on oil & grease, etc is there.

They highly endorse used oil analysis (UOA) which I did on the K241 I rebuilt back in 1985 after I ran it REALLY hard for several hours in early May '86, Yes, at 3600 RPM for ALL she was worth and it started pre-igniting and pinging for a minute or so even with no load at a medium idle to cool down. I was afraid I cooked my newly rebuilt engine. The UOA came back saying the oil was fine, just had WAY too much dissolved gasoline from blowing snow all winter. That was the same rebuild that ran for 1400 hours. There may be some guys that run their Cubbies that hard frequently, but I was mowing grass over a foot tall in FIRST GEAR (while wishing I had a creeper), not 3rd, that had been mowed twice the summer before with a big bushhog mower on a farm tractor and all those dead clippings was in with the new green grass. After I mowed around the area enough to clear 6-8 feet my buddy started raking the clippings up. He had a windrow about 1-1/2 ft tall X 1-1/2 ft wide, big enough to run thru a hay baler. I was taking about a six INCH cut with my 38" deck and it was all my K241 wanted.

I run UOA on the oil in my diesel pickup at least every year or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first and have done that for about 200,000 miles. I buy my test kits from my local Ford store which are labeled FABCO, the CAT construction equip. co around here, I think their lab is around OshKosh if I remember right. I get the results back in 3-4 days and if something is wrong they would call right away. Think the last kit I bought was about $15.