Adding a loader to a 1712

[mwheeland]

quick question about a loader. found a allis-chalmers model 600 loader for sale. Fits a 620 AC compact tractor. I'm sure that it's to big for my tractor. I thing with some work I can make it work. It's complete with pump. It's about half the price of a used loader that would fit my tractor. It's also closes to home. no traveling for it. Would you guy buy it and make it work. any info would be will welcome, thanks
My tractor is a 1712

 

[kmcconaughey]

Matthew, I have an AC 620 with an Ark model 600 loader. I believe the Ark 600 could be adapted to fit on a 1712 (about the same thing as a 782) without to much trouble, you'd have to build a new mounting frame, or modify the existing loader frame a fair amount, but the main loader should be sized about right. Just in case you've not actually seen the Ark 600 loader, here's some photos of mine.

 

[mwheeland]

Kraig Thanks for the pictures. I think I saw those same pictures on another web site. There was a picture of the tractors loader picking up a large rock. Anyway you have a nice tractor their.

The loader is a model 600, it still has the ID tag on it. It has a bit more rust on it, but it seems to be in good shape. Would you know what the weight limit on it is? I might of found a man that has a 515 AC loader for a 3 or 4 hundred model tractor. he might want to trade for the 600 loader.

What I was wondering is. The 515 loader only has one cylinder for dump of the bucket. Is that just as strong and what is the weight limit on the 515 loader? Any help would be welcome. I'm plaining on getting the loader on thursday. If it's still there.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Matthew, you probably saw my photos of the AC 620 and loader on the Simple Tractors website. I have the manual for the loader however it is packed away. I do have an electronic copy on my PC at work, I will post the specs Thursday morning. I am not familiar with the model 515 loader.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Matthew, I remembered I had an electronic copy on one of my home PCs, here are the specs for the model 600 loader.

 

[mwheeland]

Thank for the info. That was just what I need. I did see the pictures on simpletractors.com. I just got home for picking it up. It's in better shape then I thought. So far I'm happy with it, but I still have to mount it. But I will have fun with that part. Now I have to find more info on the 515 loader. Thanks again for all the help, Matt

 

[kmcconaughey]

Matthew, one thing to check on the Model 600 loader is the brace on the front of the loader, mine was cracked where the brace was butt welded to the loader arms. I have seen photos of other Model 600 loaders that have been repaired in this area so I believe it is a weak point. I fixed mine by cutting out the old brace and installing one that passes through the loader arms. I also made reinforcing plates to beef the loader arms up. My good friend Art did the welding. Here's a few photos to illustrate what I did.

 

[mwheeland]

Ok, I have come to the idea that the loader and mower deck. Don't go togethers on the 1712 ccc tractors. My next idea is to move the mower deck to the rear of the tractor. I'm sure that there is no rear pto for my tractor, but could I build one. There is a about 3/4 to 1 inch shaft coming off the back of the hydro pump. If I move the battery, could I use the shaft to drive the electric clucth that I have. I think that I could build every thing I need. What do you all think, Thanks
Matt

 

[mgonitzke]

Wouldn't it be simpler to get a second tractor?

 

[aschumacher]

Matt D. I've got a short memory, but you might want to check the RPM on that output shaft. I think it was kind of slow to spin mower blades.

 

[mwheeland]

Thanks guy's, it would be easier to get a second tractor. I even have the second tractor, its a 1710 ccc tractor. The problem is that I don't have the space for the my second tractor. I would like to keep one tractor and strip the second tractor for parts.
That speed would be needed to run the mower deck.
thanks, Matt

 

[mwheeland]

Hi guy,
I traded my Ark 600 loader for a Ark 515. The Allis-Chalmers that I think it fits is a 300 or 400 ser. Someone might of mounted it on a different tractor, because of the home made brackets and the wrong pump. The pump is not keyed and the pulley was welded on. It is a large pump for a garden tractor. It also had a second return line off the pump and the stock one from the valve. I think it off of a dump truck. I what to go back to a close stock pump. What I want to know is what size of pump is needed for a garden tractor loader? A Allis-Chalmers guy that I work with has a manual for a loader for a B-12 tractor. It runs a 1.5 gpm 1250 psi at 2000 rpm. Do you think that size of pump is good or should I get a bigger one. Northern Tools has a gear pump 2.0gpm at 1800 rpm with 3000 to 4000 psi. Or a 4 gpm at 1800 rpm with 1200 to 2000 psi. The hydro shop said that they could not help me with out the right pump or a model number. If I couldn't find that, they might guss what will work. Any help would be welcome.

 

[kweaver]

Matthew - 2 gpm would be over kill for such small cylinders. If you go to big you'll slam your cylinders everytime you crack a valve. I built up a system with only a 0.87 cubic inch pump and it would slam the cylinders with higher engine rpm.

Besides , hydraulics live longer at and below 2000psi.

 

[mwheeland]

this is the hrdro pump that came with the loader. That is a 9 inch pulley beside it, that was welded on.
If the pump that I listed are to big than do you think that a pump at 1.5 gpm at 1800 and 3000 psi would work kentuckyKen. When it comes to cubic inch, all of the pumps are well below the .87 cu. in. that you stated. The 1.5 gpm pump is only .129 cu. in. and the 4.0 gpm is only .517 cu.in. Any info would be helpful. Also I think that the 9 in. pulley is right to the loader. So the pump would spin well slower then the engine.

 

[kweaver]

With the old pump you have there you don't know what the GPM is without a flow meter.
It depends on what size pulley you'll drive the pump with. I always planned on using the PTO so I could turn the pump off when not needed.

I would run this one @ 1:1 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329716_200329716
If it was to slow for running 4 cylinders (lift/dump) then I'd up it 1.5:1

If I used the old one you have there I would start with a 4:1 step down to see what kind of volume it might have , you could always change the ratio later.

I've got to re-state my 0.87 c.i. pump ... it was 0.087 cubes BUT I was at about a 3:1 step up on it. I drove it off the crank pulley on a Vega engine in a home-made tractor.

The main thing is not to use to large of pump as it'll pull down the engine and slam the cylinders.

A pump larger than the valve can flow will choke down the engine too.
To much pressure is extremely dangerous so buy a pressure gauge and check your system at varying engine speeds before you start working the loader.

Remember you'll be working probably 2" diameter bore cylinders so figure how much volume you'll need x4 cylinders @ normal running rpms. Then back off a little for safety.

 

[kweaver]

From a Johnson loader manual

 

[mwheeland]

Thank you for the info kentuckyken. I'm plainning on using the front pto to drive the pump. To keep down the wear and tear. The hydro shop said they can take it apart and find out the spec. of the old pump for me, but I don't know. I don't know the history of the pump and it don't realy fit what I want. It also could go bad the next that I put it on. It also had a lot of water in the hydro fuild. I think I might just look at replacing the pump.

Do anyone know that is full throttle rpm of a ser. 2 17hp kohler and also idle?

The only thing that I worry about is that the older ark 515 loader only had three cylinders and they ran a 1.5 gpm @ 2000 rpm 1250 psi.

It going to rain on tueday. I will try to find out the volume of my four cylinders.

If I did go with the next size bigger pump "1.0 gpm @ 1800 rpm to 2.0 gpm @ 3600 rpm. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329714_200329714
I could adjust it more with the pulley could I or don't I understand something. It also be closer to the stock size pump. I think (maybe).
Thank you for all of your help. Please keep it coming. Matt

 

[mgonitzke]

WOT = 3600 rpm
Idle = ~1000 rpm depending on application.

 

[kweaver]

Just run it with that pump you linked to. That'd be okay. If you have 4 cylinders it'll be okay , might be fast for a single cylinder like on a bucket. You can always keep the rpm down if you have to but when you run into a pile of gravel at full speed ya really don't want to have to play with the throttle that much.

I would be leary of that old pump since it's been welded to the pulley. Seals might have got to hot.

Did you happen to see my Pipe Bending thread where I was trying to run a pump with a drill and the seal blew out ? I got soaked !

All of our air cooled engines are governed @ 3600 RPM.

 

[kweaver]

Matt - You sneaked in while I was typing

I always pick up valves and pumps from the scrape yard not knowing anything about them but hey , it's a weakness !

I figured to measure the volume of a pump I could put a hose on the inlet and turn the shaft by hand and collect the out put at 1 revolution then measure it and figure the gpm. A lot of math ... I hate math !