2206 engine/mower problem

[jniolon]

well... a little over a year later... my problem has returned... fouled plug on right side, excessive oil use... missing and low power (due to fouled plug )

another head gasket ??? AFAIK there has been no backfire... do I need to go thru this drill again ???

thanks
John

 

[jdiederichs]

John, I sure would hope not another head gasket! You might just want to remove the valve cover and retorque the head bolts on that side.
Look to see that the valve cover didn't have LOTS of oil; if so there may be "flash" in the oil return passage of the head limiting the oil from returning quickly to the crankcase. This could be drawn down the intake valve.

Maybe try a different brand of spark plug once, I have had excellent results with Auto Lite plugs lately, they have a plug great plug with a platinum(?) electrode that lasts when regular plugs die. Keep us informed...

 

[jniolon]

hey Jim...

too late... I tore it all down last evening. the Valve cover showed no excess oil... just a little bit puddled on top of the lifters... I checked the torque on the head bolts and it was fine... I've got the parts ordered...

I read somewhere there is a difference in gaskets.. the IHC gaskets have a 'fire ring' on the id... and the aftermarkets don't.. after looking at the old one, evidently it wasn't OEM.

the only thing I see is that there is a darkening of the gasket between the lifter opening and the piston bore... looks like oil saturated maybe... the rest of the gasket is normal color except for a small area at bottom of bore... see my crude hand drawn sketch attached... parts should be here sat/mon and I'll
install... the tear down went much faster this time with experience.. but it's still a pain in the butt

gonna do an oil/filter change while it's down... don't know what's in there and it's cheap/easy to do with everything out of the way

john

 

[jniolon]

here's the actual picture

 

[jniolon]

well, It's me again Margaret ! since my last post I did complete the head gasket change and changed the oil/filter. fired her off and everything seemed ok... (the optimum word is seemed) About 1/2 way thru my normal cut... 30 minutes.. I noticed a miss... not a heavy miss just a couple of strokes didn't fire. as I progressed cutting the miss got worse and included a couple of small backfires... almost like a muffled pop. Mower seemed to loose power. I pulled it into the shop and pulled the plug on the bank that got the new gasket... a little oily but not fouled... the other side was nice and tan.. cleaned the plug and regapped (it was ok) and tried again... same symptoms which got gradually worse till the engine finally stumbled and died...

the only way to get it running again was with the choke completely out for a few seconds... then back in till it stumbled again...choke out till I could get it back into the shop... shut it off. kicked it and locked it up...

now the choke thing tells me it might be fuel related... although the missing ???? I will say... when it's cool and just starting out it runs great and cuts well... engine is smooth and plenty of power... but after it's good and warm the problem starts ??? fuel filter ?? ignition ?? moon phases ???

any guesses ??? Zero turns are looking more and more attractive !

thanks
John

 

[jchamberlin]

John: Your situation doesn't sound good to me. The fact that one cylinder is acting different than another pretty much narrows it down to a problem with (1) low compression (which can have more than one cause) or (2) an issue with the ignition's secondary --spark plugs or spark plug wires. Compression can be lost because (a) the new head gasket is leaking (did you check the surface of the block and head for flatness when you changed the head gasket?), or (b) the rings aren't sealing, or (c) one of the valves is sticking. The exhaust valve is the first candidate for sticking, but the intake can stick too.

Heat buildup can promote mechanical failure. When you changed the head gasket, did you remove the shrouds and blow out all the dirt, grass, and crud from around the cylinders and block? It is recommended maintenance.

I'm not an expert, but those are things I would check. If the problem is fuel related, either filter or carburetor, it still doesn't account for the fact that one cylinder is firing correctly, and the other one isn't.

Your engine looks like a V-Twin, an opposed cylinder engine can run fine on one cylinder, it simply lacks power. I'm not sure the same is true for V-Twins. Others may chime in with more wisdom than I.

I don't think its time for a zero-turn just yet, unless that is what you really want. If you can verify that the problem is mechanical, and therefore costly, you might have sufficient justification.

 

[jniolon]

Jeremiah,

Thanks for the reply and I agree… it doesn’t sound good.
I’ll run a compression check this afternoon if time permits…
I did check the block for flatness and it was good..
I polished the head surface on some 600 grit over a piece of glass till all of the
surface showed even smoothness (very little needed)
Rings ?? compression test should show something there
Sticking valves… can this be intermittent ? cause, sometimes it runs fine..especially when cold.
I did blow all the crap out of it when I had the sheet metal off..
I’m stopping on the way home to get new plugs and a fuel filter
Plug wires will be ordered… no local cub dealer that I care to deal with
And besides being an ass he has to order everything and it takes weeks.. he
Won’t place an order till he has 500 bucks worth.. I waited 5 weeks for a carb
Kit ONCE. After a week I ordered online and had it overnite… he called a month later
With good news..”my parts came in” !

I’m not ready to drop the hammer on the ZTR financially but am leaning that way when I do
I like the utility of a tractor for trailers and such… ZTR don’t impress me in their flexibility
My first Cub lasted over 20 years with nearly zero maintenance, but it was an IH... this one has certainly been a disappointment.
More to come…

 

[jniolon]

Wednesday pm... here's the latest
came home this afternoon and first thing pulled the plugs and did a compression check... left 150# right 90#... so there is some kind of problem there.. the right side was the head gasket change side...

changed out both plugs and fuel filter...
started it up and it ran great for about 45 minutes and just died like you hit the kill switch, no skip, pop or stumble...

tried to start it ...would only start with choke out full.... yes, there was 3/4 tank of gas... got it back to shop did another compression check thinking something might have changed... NOT 148 left 89 right... so that kinda rules out valves doesn't it ??? or maybe not, if I knew something I wouldn't be pestering you guys

tried to start it again and it started fine and ran about another 10 minutes with no problems.. full power and no miss... then it died again... this time after starting with choke it was a struggle to get it back to the shop... finished 1/2 the yard with the old Yazoo trim mower...

suggestions ?? answers ?? wild guesses ?? I'm all out of knowledge here..and breath... haven't pushed a mower that much in a loooooonnnngggg time

thanks again
John

 

[proessler]

With the Choke needed to be out to run, could there be an air leak in the carb or intake system?

 

[mhomrighausen]

It's been a long day however.... here goes. Just a thought on this one so I may be totally off base. Sometime back I remember reading something, somewhere about with one of the newer series Kohler twin engines that when someone installs rings in the engine according to the manual then they wil be installling one of the rings in upside down. The manual was written incorrectly from the start. At first things ran fairly great however it didn't take too many hours and problems would arise. Again... just a wild thought... could it be possible that one of the rings on just one cylinder may have been installed incorrectly?

 

[jniolon]

it's possible Marlin... but this mower is 10 years old... I'd think it'd show up before now... afa the intake leak ??? seems it would do it all the time??? sometimes it runs just fine.. I'm still searching for the solution... I'm also wonsering about the difference in cyl in the compression check

john

 

[jdiederichs]

John,

You may have a failing/weak fuel solenoid on the carb. It is at the back of the carb. A weak one will barely pull the shut off plunger when cold, as it warms up from engine heat and from the solenoid coil engaged it can weaken enough to "drop" the plunger, shutting off the tractor.

AFA the compression; not so good. The rule of thumb is a 10% variation side to side. Makes me wonder if you have a bad hydraulic valve lifter, one that doesn't bleed down or bleeds off slow. They work just like one in a car or light truck and are very similar to Chevy's. A bad one could actually hold a valve open somewhat if it can't bleed off the oil, resulting in the minimal compression. Remember that you really do need to run 10W-30 oil for that reason.

 

[proessler]

A set of rings for one side is only ...$69+tax+shipping. Maybe you could be covered under Extended Engine Warranty that was brought about with the lawsuit---lawnmowerclass.com... Deadline for filing warranty claims is 2/21/2012 !

 

[jniolon]

Jim,

is there a way to test the fuel shutoff solonoid ?? voltage drop ? amp draw ??

AFA the bad lifter ?? so I guess that might explain the good sometimes, bad sometimes operation.. the lifter is pumping up and then bleeds down later ??? I've always used 10w30 in this engine... guess it could be just a mechanical failure ?? is there a fix... top cylinder lube or something that might free it up ?? just did an oil change so I KNOW it's Castrol 10w30 in the engine...

@ Paul... I don't like your suggestion Paul... rings mean a remove/teardown... don't guess the cylinders slide off like the old volkswagons did. If it's that or something worse... seems like time to cut and run

It would be nice if I could just store it till spring then worry about it, but I use this mower all thru the winter pulling a leaf vac over my kingdom... dang oak leaves hang on till March just laughing at me waiting for them to fall...

come on guys... give me that magic bullet that will make all this go away... and please don't say ZTR

 

[mhomrighausen]

The 1810 that my ex and I purchased new started acting up after we split. Our oldest son installed new rings in it twice. The tractor was around nine years or so old when the original set of rings went bad. I told his younger brother about the rings possibility of being installed wrong if my son followed the manual recommendations. He was going to let his brother know.

 

[dross]

John, Yes, I believe the cylinders do slide off.

 

[jdiederichs]

Dave,

The cylinder barrels were removable on the Magnum twins, such as the M-18 etc. Not so on the Command V-twins, they are cast as part of the crankcase.

John,

Re-ringing the Command is not a big deal if you remove the engine or take off the electric clutch etc so you can take off the "closure plate" or front engine cover, and of course the head on that side.

Ther are no conn. rod bearings to mess with, so you remove the rod cap and remove the piston/rod thru the top.

Tools to have or borrow include a ball flex hone to make a few light passes to break the glaze on the cylinder and a ring compressor to ease reinstall. Having a ring expander to install the new rings is a big plus as it will not distort the new rings.Note: be sure to clean the bore with soap and water to remove the grit left behind by the hone. You need not flush it, wiping/rinsing/wiping with a wet soapy wash cloth repeatedly with suffice. Of course you would have the crank covered prior to honing and when done also clean the rod journal well.

Now is the time to replace the lifters, they are really cheap anyways and I consider them a throw away item when servicing the engine. IF you plan on re-using them do NOT pull them out using a magnet; they are easily magnetized and will collect fine metallic pieces and wear out the camshaft quickly.

AFA the carb shut off solenoid, no easy test that I know of. It is easy to remove but expensive to replace. I haven't seen any test values for amperage, ohming the coil etc. It simply works by closing the main jet passage when not energized.If you 'bench' test it should slam into the retracted position when powered sharply and release when power is withdrawn.Keep it energized for ~ 30 minutes on the bench, if the body exceeds 150-160° after that time, it is not so good anymore.

 

[jniolon]

Dave,

I'm trying now to determine if I want to rebuild that side... I'd need rings, lifters, pushrods ??? all in STD sizes... buy/borrow a hone and a ring compressor (mine is too big) ?

can this be done with engine IN tractor by removing clutch as you mentioned and a front plate ??

I got to read the service manual... but probably looking at 100.00 in parts ??

My enemy is time... to pull the engine and disassemble... redo and reverse... and I'm not an engine builder...but it sounds doable...

then my decision is do I want to do this and have a 10year old engine with another 100 bucks of new parts... ?? new engine is around 1500.00... then you say do you want a 10 yr old mower with a 1500.00 engine ?? or just pull the trigger on another mower... economy scares me right now and I don't want to buy new... but this thing is beginning to cost me more and more... and there is no guarantee this will cure it, right ??

I just should be rich !

j