1450 engine securing/mounting bolts fell out

jonrick · Oct 28, 2024

I had been trying to track down an issue where my 1450s throttle was slipping when going up hills and issues with the governor surging sometimes. Well, today I discovered the likely culprit. When I went to do an oil change, the act of pulling on the wrench to take the drain plug out shifted the entire engine in the cradle. This also makes sense why I've heard some odd sounds from the drive system. I had assumed they were just loose engine cowls vibrating. I feel like an idiot for not picking up on this earlier and really hope I haven't done any permanent damage. I guess this is why they call it experience.

Upon further investigation I discovered only one bolt that secures the engine to the cradle was left. My questions for you experienced gents are: how many bolts are used to secure the engine itself to the cradle? What size are they supposed to be? And do I need special washers? (I noticed that the one bolt that's left does not snug down when tightened all the way.)

This is the first oil change I've done as the PO had done one right when I bought the tractor.

Thanks!

Quick update: When I ran my finger around the bolt holes, they became covered in anti-seize. I'm guessing the over application of it by someone before me may have allowed the bolts to vibrate loose and fall out.

-CӞ · Oct 28, 2024

PO taking out wrong bolts, looking for oil drain?

glad ya caught it before catastrophe!

glippert · Oct 28, 2024

jonrick said:
I had been trying to track down an issue where my 1450s throttle was slipping when going up hills and issues with the governor surging sometimes. Well, today I discovered the likely culprit. When I went to do an oil change, the act of pulling on the wrench to take the drain plug out shifted the entire engine in the cradle. This also makes sense why I've heard some odd sounds from the drive system. I had assumed they were just loose engine cowls vibrating. I feel like an idiot for not picking up on this earlier and really hope I haven't done any permanent damage. I guess this is why they call it experience.

Upon further investigation I discovered only one bolt that secures the engine to the cradle was left. My questions for you experienced gents are: how many bolts are used to secure the engine itself to the cradle? What size are they supposed to be? And do I need special washers? (I noticed that the one bolt that's left does not snug down when tightened all the way.)

This is the first oil change I've done as the PO had done one right when I bought the tractor.

Thanks!

Quick update: When I ran my finger around the bolt holes, they became covered in anti-seize. I'm guessing the over application of it by someone before me may have allowed the bolts to vibrate loose and fall out.

There should be four bolts (3/8-16 x 2-1/4 ? I think). But if you have an aluminum oil pan, I'm guessing the mounting holes are shot. At least mine were, with the mating surfaces (where oil pan meets mounting rails) worn way down (unevenly, up to 1/4"). I replaced it with a used cast iron oil pan (from a wide frame 149 I think). Recommend you take a good look at the mounting holes on the bottom of the oil pan.

mgonitzke · Oct 29, 2024

The 4 bolts attaching the oil pan to the ISO mount rails are 3/8-16 x 1 IIRC. No issue using anti-seize, but they should have a split lock washer and be torqued properly (~33-37 ft-lbs per service manual).

glippert · Oct 29, 2024

mgonitzke said:
The 4 bolts attaching the oil pan to the ISO mount rails are 3/8-16 x 1 IIRC. No issue using anti-seize, but they should have a split lock washer and be torqued properly (~33-37 ft-lbs per service manual).

Oops. I must have been thinking of the iso-mount bolts. Thanks Matt.

jonrick · Oct 29, 2024

mgonitzke said:
The 4 bolts attaching the oil pan to the ISO mount rails are 3/8-16 x 1 IIRC. No issue using anti-seize, but they should have a split lock washer and be torqued properly (~33-37 ft-lbs per service manual).

Thanks for that info! I'll head to the hardware store shortly.

jonrick · Oct 29, 2024

glippert said:
There should be four bolts (3/8-16 x 2-1/4 ? I think). But if you have an aluminum oil pan, I'm guessing the mounting holes are shot. At least mine were, with the mating surfaces (where oil pan meets mounting rails) worn way down (unevenly, up to 1/4"). I replaced it with a used cast iron oil pan (from a wide frame 149 I think). Recommend you take a good look at the mounting holes on the bottom of the oil pan.

I was reading last night about issues with aluminum oil pans. I'm assuming to do the swap I have to pull the engine? Just so I understand the issue correctly, does the point at which the bolt head mates with the pan become "crushed in" or something?

mgonitzke · Oct 29, 2024

jonrick said:
I was reading last night about issues with aluminum oil pans. I'm assuming to do the swap I have to pull the engine? Just so I understand the issue correctly, does the point at which the bolt head mates with the pan become "crushed in" or something?

Engine has to be removed. The issue is usually that the threaded holes either strip out, or the bolts are left loose and the mounting bosses on the pan wear down a bunch, or both.

jonrick · Oct 29, 2024

I found one of the missing bolts under the engine. When I compared the old bolts to the new (correct) bolts one was way too long, while the other was too short. Plus no washers for either. Looks like someone might have just used what they had on-hand.

I'm hoping I might be able to get away with not having to replace the pan just yet. I'm at the tail end of my degree and don't have time to pull the engine until after I'm clear of it. Assuming everything snugs down with the new bolts, would you guys reckon I can get away with a few more months of use before pulling the engine?

Also, I'm assuming in order to to install the bolts that go above the front axle I can just jack the tractor up and "swing" the axle to the opposing side to get the clearance?

dschwandt · Oct 29, 2024

Yup, that's what you have to do!
Pull the wheels, makes a bit easier.

dsarow · Wednesday at 11:22 AM

mgonitzke said:
Engine has to be removed. The issue is usually that the threaded holes either strip out, or the bolts are left loose and the mounting bosses on the pan wear down a bunch, or both.

Not a bad idea to periodically check bolts on these old girls as vibration does do wonders and when one gets loose,now things happen

dschwandt · Wednesday at 12:09 PM

Would be a good time to do the cradle mod and check the ISO mounts as well as the driveshaft couplers front and rear plus the fan

jonrick · Wednesday at 12:33 PM

dschwandt said:
Would be a good time to do the cradle mod and check the ISO mounts as well as the driveshaft couplers front and rear plus the fan

That's what I figured. I'm planning to pull it and go through everything once I've got a little time. I definitely need to service the valve breather as I have a slow oil leak from that area I think.

One interesting thing is that it looks like the iso mounts were done recently. The more I "dig into" this tractor, the more it looks like someone started the process of a resto (at some point). Some things are in great shape while others, like the engine cowls, are all messed up/jerry-rigged.

jonrick · Wednesday at 2:19 PM

You gents were on the money (not surprised). Back left threads are stripped! No choice on the engine pull now haha.
Any pointers on where I can get a replacement pan? A quick search comes up with an ebay listing for a flat pan. Mine is not flat, are these interchangeable?

bjames · Wednesday at 2:59 PM

Used...

https://cubcadetusedparts.com/product/kh-47-199-09/

New...

mgonitzke · Thursday at 6:07 AM

The flat pan is for the 10 hp K241 engines. You can't use those on the 12-16 hp engines. You need the deep sump pan from a Cub Cadet-spec K301, K321, or K341. I'd look for a cast iron pan instead of an aluminum one.

dschwandt · Thursday at 8:15 AM

When you get one, clean it well and carefully inspect it for cracks, especially around the corners where the bolt holes are.

Neil Mullins · Thursday at 10:15 AM

If memory serves, the “flat” pan can be used but the dipper tang on the end of the connecting rod has to be shortened. & of course the sump will hold less oil. Personally I would want the deep sump pan.

dkirk · Thursday at 12:57 PM

My recommendation - use the original aluminum oil pan as oil runs cooler versus the cast iron pan. Helicoil the damaged mounting holes to restore the threads. Perform the mount rail cradle modification. Use blue LocTite on the bolts when reassembling and torque to spec.

jonrick · Thursday at 2:38 PM

dkirk said:
My recommendation - use the original aluminum oil pan as oil runs cooler versus the cast iron pan. Helicoil the damaged mounting holes to restore the threads. Perform the mount rail cradle modification. Use blue LocTite on the bolts when reassembling and torque to spec.

Interesting. Are the cooling properties the reason that some of these machines were fitted with aluminum pans? I was wondering why IH would go with such a soft metal for a part that is used to secure the engine.

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