1864 Kohler Rebuild Costs

[tillenden]

Looking at an 1864 Cub. The engine smokes a fair amount.

What is the approximate rebuild cost of this engine?

It might just need rings, but while it is aprat, it might as well get redone.

Is this an engine that is easy to rebuild? I have the skills, just never have rebuilt a Kohler engine.

Let me know.

Thanks in advance.

 

[cmwkrill]

I would suppose it would depend on how competent you feel you are.. In a perfect world, I'd tell you to go and tackle a few of the older Kohler K-series engines first, but, this is far from a perfect world. I think this is the same motor I transplanted from one simplicity to another simplicity at work, but I can't be sure. If its the engine I'm thinking of, I would proceed, but be careful. I would also definitly look through the service manual first and decide if your skills are up to the task. Perhaps someone on here knows a little more about this motor and could tell you more than I can. Hope I was able to help a little.

 

[jdiederichs]

Todd,

What hours are on that engine? If the air filter looks intact it likely needs no more than a set of head gaskets. The older style gaskets sometimes developed a "worm hole" within the graphoil gasket material and allowed oil to be drawn into the combustion chambers. Oil source was usually the oil return passage in the gasket, but occasionally the cutout for the lifter/ pushrod area as well. I had an 1864 that did the same thing.

 

[tillenden]

I went and took a look at this tractor. Engine starts and seems to run good. It does not really smoke at all until it is warm. Turn the PTO for the deck on, and it really smokes and bogs down quite a bit.

Rings or head gaskets?

Could I find someone to rebuild it for about $500 or so?

Current owner states it blew his driveway all winter and then this spring seemed to act up.

It is either I buy this and rebuild or put all the money into my 128 or 149.

 

[jbaker]

Todd stay wth the 128 & 149 jmho

 

[jchamberlin]

Todd: I'm no engine expert, but it would seem to me that if it were the rings it would smoke more on STARTUP than after it warms up. I would heed what Jim says, he is a person of long experience and great knowledge (judging from the posts I've read), and he has owned an 1864 himself. Whatever it is, it is definitely heat related. I would be curious to hear what Jim or others have to say; but if I were in you shoes, I would take the risk. I love my M18, it delivers solid, smooth power that I doubt even my 149 will ever be able to match.

 

[jdiederichs]

Todd,

You may need to ask around if any friends or associates have access to some simple diagnostic equipment. That engine should have a leakdown check on each cylinder first of all. That will tell you the condition of the rings and valves without tearing into it. What that does is puts air into the combustion chamber Through the spark plug hole with the piston at TDC. This will tell the % of leak down, and by checking at the oil fill cap and muffler along with carb, you will hear where the leakage occurs.

A compression check will be somewhat helpful but not as good from a diagnostic point of view.

A failing head gasket often will not be noticed in either test mentioned, as the "wormhole" in the gasket is quite small.

Should you be unable to run the leak down/ compression checks, I will still bet the head gaskets are faulty. Since the Commands have hydraulic lifters, changing gaskets is not a tough job. The most time consuming part is getting to the heads with all the metal and plastic shrouds covering everything. I would guess-timate the shops can do both gaskets in under 4 hours of labor should you decide to take it in.

My advice on the 1864; A strong running and well built tractor. Frame and many components are the same design as the 782 series, just the hood style changed with the plastic in place of steel. The Command twin is a very well designed and long-life engine as well. As noted in my earlier post, the redesign of the head gaskets does cure the smoking issue. I think you would really enjoy the tractor. Add on a 3 point hitch and you could take it to plow days and have a blast.

 

[tillenden]

I think I am going to buy it. Blower, weights, chains and tractor for the sum of $500. How could I go wrong?

 

[jdiederichs]

Sounds like a great deal! I sure liked the 1864 I had, only parted with it so I could get my 1782 diesel.

 

[jchamberlin]

Todd,

Another diagnostic test you could try with the engine running is the balance test. Warm it up and short out each spark plug in turn, if the engine starts smoking noticeably more with one of the spark plugs shorted, the cylinder in which the spark plug is firing has a problem. It is a very effective test and will give you immediate feedback on the state of the engine.

 

[tillenden]

I picked the tractor up and finally had an opportunity to look. The left bank cylinder plug is heavily oiled. The right side looks good if not a little lean. Engine smokes but it is more of a white smoke than a blue smoke. Not much smoke at startup but gets worse as it warms up. Turn the PTO on for the deck and it bogs right down and does not run very smooth.

I am really leaning towards a head gasket. From reading on various sources, it seems like the head gasket is a common failure. I do not have a way to do a leak down test. I can take it to the Kohler dealer and they will get about 30 dollars to do one. I am almost thinking it may be as fast to do a head gasket on it.

Is there any thing else I could be overlooking?

I would like to get this tractor going so I can start rebuilding my 128 and 149. I plan on having quite a fleet for plowing snow this winter. The 128 will have a QA42A on it, the 149 with a 42" blade and the 1864 with the 45" blower.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and suggestions.

 

[cmwkrill]

Honestly, I'd try a head gasket first. If that is not the problem, you might be out, what, $10-$15? you might even be able to reuse the gasket if you have to tear it down.

 

[tillenden]

This is bizarre. I just took the valve cover off and found there is a missing valve rod. Now, the questions is, before going any more into it, could that rod have made it's way anywhere? I am almost wondering if someone did this one time before and forgot to put the rod back in. Ideas?

 

[jchamberlin]

Todd: I've never seen an Overhead Valve engine design in which the push rods had anywhere to go but the tappet-to-rocker cut-away channel. A lot can happen inside an engine turning 3600 RPM; a lot more can happen when it is disassembled and re-assembled.

 

[tillenden]

I put the new rod in and it bent it. So there has to be something in the valve that is wrong.

Ideas?

 

[mgonitzke]

What weight oil is in the engine? Kohler Command V-twins MUST have 10W-30 for warm-weather use or they will bend pushrods.

 

[tillenden]

I do not know what is in it. After I had this figured out, I was going to put 10w-30 in it along with a new filter.

There was a reason the valve rod was missing though. Almost makes me think the guides are bad. Even thinking the vavle could be gunked up from not having a valve rod in it.

Might just pull the head and see what it looks like. I do have a head gasket kit, so I will do that at the same time.

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt: I'm curious. Why would the viscosity of the oil cause push rods to bend? Is it because the lifter is hydraulic?

 

[tillenden]

Alright, I have it figured out. The exhaust valve side of the head is the issue. Opened it up and found the seat for the valve completely out and obviously it has been that way for a while. So it looks like a new head and valves.

The biggest concern I have is the piston has a mark on it. It is on the inner part. Does not look like it will be an issue, but need opinions. I will post some pics.

 

[tillenden]