1650 project

[ZXT]

Hey guys! Just joined. My 1650 has been out of service for a little over a year now and I plan on resolving some of its issues over the winter.

For starters, it cranks incredibly hard. It's quite obvious that the ACR is not working, and I've read this isn't a terribly uncommon thing to happen. From what I've gathered, the piece that triggers the ACR on the camshaft breaks off and this is the result. I am able to get it started once in a while, but I try to keep it to a minimum to keep from frying the starter. It is definitely not a battery or ground issue.

Second issue is that it vibrates like everything and has very little power. I got this tractor from my grandfather. When he got it, it had thrown a rod and the engine was apart. A replacement crank had already been sourced and came with it, and my grandfather (who has been inside Kohlers and around Cub Cadets forever) put it back together. I believe that the crank that was put in it was for a K301, which is balanced differently. I also think it was a Wheel Horse spec crank, as he had to have the output turned down. As for why it it lacks power, I'm not sure. When mowing, if I get into much grass (over about 4" tall) or try to pull any kind of a slight incline, it'll bog down to nearly nothing. I have to stop the tractor and wait for it to catch up. It's annoying to say the least.

I know that K341's are known for vibrating some, but compared to my WH C-160, which also has a K341, there is a HUGE difference. The WH also doesn't have the bogging issue that the Cub does. I think I need to find a cam and a known K321-341 crankshaft to put in it - that is unless anyone on here has any suggestions!

I'm open to any and all advice! Thank you!

Jonah

 

[mfrade]

Hi Jonah, Nice to have you here. Yes, the 16 hp units are well known for vibration problems. I think you really need to get inside that motor and verify what you really have. Since you can compare the operation to the WH, I'd think you'd be able to judge the actual performance. And in the compression release there is also a spring that wears / gets weak. Replace it while you're in there.
I have a 169 that I don't use. It's hard starting and painful to run with all the vibration. I leave it in the barn!

 

[ZXT]

Thanks, Mike! Prior to buying the C-160, I really didn't have a way to perform an apples-to-apples comparison. I just knew that my 12 Hp Tecumseh (Garbage, replaced with a K321) on my main WH mowing machine would run circles around it. That's when I knew I had a real problem and stopped using it. For the record, the 16 on my WH is remarkably smooth; I don't think it vibrates any more than a 12 or 14 horse.

I think pulling it apart is a good idea - I hate wondering about something. Hopefully I will find something glaringly obvious as far as the hard cranking goes, but I don't believe there are any markings on the crank distinguishing between the two. I think I should find a crank that's either well in-spec or find one out of spec and have it turned so that it'll be correct for sure. I will definitely replace that spring while I'm in there.

 

[dschwandt]

I'm afraid you will find that spring NLA
I did a complete O/H on my 1650 last year and use it for tiller duty.
Did the cradle mod and installed new ISO mounts as well and
It is remarkably smooth running and starts very easily with Dave Kirk's point saver installed.
Good luck

 

[rjruchti]

I picked up a CC1650 last winter with no engine. Larger Horizontal shaft engine are hard to find that don't need rebuilt at reasonable price. Ended up putting a Briggs twin 16 hp. in with solid engine mount. Much smoother than any Kohler single I been around.

 

[mfrade]

For the record, the 16 on my WH is remarkably smooth; I don't think it vibrates any more than a 12 or 14 horse.
I think pulling it apart is a good idea - I hate wondering about something. Hopefully I will find something glaringly obvious as far as the hard cranking goes, but I don't believe there are any markings on the crank distinguishing between the two. I think I should find a crank that's either well in-spec or find one out of spec and have it turned so that it'll be correct for sure. I will definitely replace that spring while I'm in there.

When you do pull it apart, don't toss any of the parts that you remove. Things like the wrist pin that you buy aftermarket are really very heavy as compared to the original parts. I save my old parts and had them weighed in a lab, somewhere in this site the weights were posted / saved. We should be able to find them if you need to compare your findings of whats inside yours. If you have a heavy rotating assembly, it's more than likely aftermarket and adding to the vibes.

 

[ZXT]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

David, what did you wind up doing for that spring? Re-use the original?

Roger, I was wondering about solid mounts but didn't know how that would work because of how the transmission drives off the engine. I can see having angles off slightly causing issues.

Mike, I won't toss anything I pull from the engine. I hardly ever get rid of parts that might still be of use! I'm not sure my digital shipping scale can weigh something as light as a wrist pin, but it might. Comparing them to what you posed might provide some good insight! If you happen to come across the post, I would like to look through it. I'll do some searching for it as well.

 

[dschwandt]

I had one on hand that I had bought earlier "just in case"
Another good reason to save stuff.
The secret however, is to label the parts and store them in such a way so you will know WHERE THEY ARE when you NEED THEM

 

[john.knutson]

The secret however, is to label the parts and store them in such a way so you will know WHERE THEY ARE when you NEED THEM

I recently purchased wire tags to label my gas cans with different mix ratios. The smallest quantity I found was like 1000 for $30. I have a feeling they will come in real handy with my new CC project

Where to store and how to organize everything once labelled is TBD, however...

 

[ZXT]

I had one on hand that I had bought earlier "just in case"
Another good reason to save stuff.
The secret however, is to label the parts and store them in such a way so you will know WHERE THEY ARE when you NEED THEM

I have plenty of "just in case" things, but not for CC's. I've never been disciplined enough to label parts very well... and I always put them in that one place that I just know I'll remember! You know how that goes, though

 

[rjruchti]

The engine crank center and the transmission driven center will be off just a bit but I don't think it will be an issue. The rag joints should take care of that as long as the bearings in the shaft ends are good. I checked 2 or 3 of my other tractors with original engines and 2 of them don't line up exactly center to center as close as I can tell. I did tilt the engine down in back slightly to help with that alignment which also altered the PTO pulley alignments for the B belt. Will have to watch things real close for the first hour or so of full throttle operation.

A remote oil filter set up and a couple small notches in the frame would lower the Briggs enough for true straight alignment. Will see how things work out when the snow hits.

 

[tjesse]

I picked up a CC1650 last winter with no engine. Larger Horizontal shaft engine are hard to find that don't need rebuilt at reasonable price. Ended up putting a Briggs twin 16 hp. in with solid engine mount. Much smoother than any Kohler single I been around.

 

[tjesse]

Howdy, how much troble did you have mounting the Briggs 16hp?

 

[rjruchti]

Not much. Just a lot of in and out trial and error fitting it in to get clearance at the frame sides etc. Removed the Iso mounts completely as they won't be needed with a twin engine which runs much smoother. 1" square tubing bolted to the engine at the normal mounting holes. Tubing layed cross way of the engine. The gave just enough clearance for the oil filter and at the side frame of the tractor. The square tubing was welded to the tractor frame but this was a last step. Engine mounting bolts are kind of hid but accessible for engine removal. At that point I could measure what I needed for the adapter to reach from the flywheel back to the drive shaft. Your measurements may be different than mine. Be sure the adapter tube is large enough for the flange nut to clear with a deep well socket on it. Also the hole for the threaded end of the crank has to be turned in on a lather for dead center alignment. We started with a 3/16 X 7/8" flat washer welded to the tube, then enlarged the hole in the lathe. I used grade 8 bolts & nuts at the bearing flange to adapter as the oversized holes allowed for a minor adjustment to get the drive shaft running true. Lot of trial and error and trying different things before I got to the final fitment. Not saying my any means that this is the only way to do it as hopefully someone will come up with a better way.

 

[dgunn]

Hi Jonah, Nice to have you here. Yes, the 16 hp units are well known for vibration problems. I think you really need to get inside that motor and verify what you really have. Since you can compare the operation to the WH, I'd think you'd be able to judge the actual performance. And in the compression release there is also a spring that wears / gets weak. Replace it while you're in there.
I have a 169 that I don't use. It's hard starting and painful to run with all the vibration. I leave it in the barn!

I have a K321 that started giving me trouble with the ACR. Everything I read said not to try to adjust it because the cam follower is hardened and will break easily. When I opened the machine up I found a tiny speck of carbon that had come to rest on the plate and caused just enough friction to stop the follower from returning when the engine was shut off thereby leaving the compression release closed causing it very hard to start. I ended up not having to do anything but remove that spec of carbon and it's been working great for the past ten years. Just lucky for a change.